Introduction to Healthy Arguments

Speaker 1 0:00

Hey, what's good y'all. Welcome back to the Sit Down Talk podcast. My name is Kier.

Speaker 2 0:04

And I'm Noemi.

Speaker 1 0:05

And we welcome you. We welcome you. Today we're going to talk about something that can make or break your relationship, and that's how y'all fight, because, if we honest, if we're keeping it a buck, arguments are always going to happen, but the way we handle those arguments, that's where the real work is.

Speaker 2 0:29

Right. There's a difference between disagreeing and trying to win at all costs. We've learned that fighting fair means keeping the respect even when we don't see eye to eye. No name calling, no low blows, just figuring out how to work through the hard stuff without making it harder talk about it, man.

Speaker 1 0:37

So in this episode we're going to share some of our toughest lessons, the mistakes that we've had to correct painstakingly, and how we learn to argue in a way that it just kind of keeps the love at the center of everything, even when we're frustrated with each other.

Speaker 2 0:51

Because, at the end of the day, it's not about who's right or wrong. It's about making sure we both come out of it stronger.

Speaker 1 0:56

Yeah, good point, boo. With that being said, here's a sit down, talk, let's go.

Speaker 2 1:01

We've been having a lot of conversations about invisible loads and disagreements and arguments within a relationship, and I think sometimes a lot of people see us and they see who we are today and they don't necessarily see what it took for us to be here. So I've seen comments like oh my God, do you guys ever argue? Do you even disagree? And blah, blah, blah. I mean we're better now, for sure, but like they just look different. So, like, let me paint the picture for you, right? So it's dinner time, it's a school day. Um, if you guys follow, like our, our personal stuff, if you guys follow the vlog, like you know, we have a long commute to school.

Speaker 1 1:42

And we talk about the school commute every episode.

Speaker 2 1:46

Because it's real. It's real. It causes trauma in every part of our lives in some capacity Trauma and drama. Yeah, I mean, that's what an adult is. It's just managing trauma. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You just get better at managing it.

Speaker 1 1:58

That's right.

Speaker 2 1:58

But going back to the picture, it's dinner time. I made. I already picked up and dropped off the kids, came home, made dinner and usually Kira and I have like it's like an unspoken rule. It's how we kind of help each other carry the load, like if I do dishes, he I mean if I do dinner he'll do dishes. So let's say this is a day where I did dinner, I'm expecting him to do dishes, but he decides to do the the nighttime routine. I'm washed, he's washed he had back-to-back meetings.

Speaker 1 2:26

For those that don't know, wash means extremely tired oh, is that like a dc sling? It's not, but you know people, I got it from you.

Speaker 2 2:31

Yeah, that's true, that's true I'm drained, he's drained and we haven't had a chance to kind of check in with each other. I'm drained because of my commute, the invisible load of trying to figure out doctor's appointments, who ate what, whatever, and he's had just a busy work day and we haven't checked in with each other so by the end of the night I'm frustrated because the dishes are still in the sink, not done, he's not doing them and he's drained because even after a long work day he did the night routine for both girls bath.

Speaker 2 3:00

Uh lotion lotion putting their clothes in putting them down to sleep reading the books.

Speaker 1 3:05

Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 3:07

And at the end of the day, we're both drained, but we're expecting the other person to do what the agreed upon role is for the night routine. And now we're frustrated. And now I got an attitude because I'm mad at him and but he's being short because, unbeknownst to me, he got an attitude because he's annoyed with me. And then this is a situation where I feel like we've grown. That can turn into an entire argument, both of us rightfully in our feelings, but we have not communicated what's going on?

Speaker 2 3:36

Or we're both suppressing it and now we're not talking to each other. And this is the point in the night where we do check in and now we don't want to God damn it Gaines in the night where we do check in and now we don't want to.

Real Relationship Conflicts

Speaker 1 3:46

God damn it, gaines. That's how you intro the pod man. That's how you do that.

Speaker 2 3:48

But what we're going to be talking about today is how to handle those disagreements, how to make sure we fight fair and how to make sure we get to the finish line, which is understanding and making sure that we're on the same page with things, and that has gone wrong in so many ways in our relationship, and we just want to give you guys practical tools and actual real life examples of how we went from arguing every night to actually get into a place where we can communicate, understand our frustration, still be in our feelings, but be respectful while we're, you know, in a partnership. How I do, I feel like I'm yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 4:25

I like that a lot. Nah, that's spot on and it took us.

Speaker 2 4:28

I get comments sometimes like oh, you want to let the perfect couple oh, that is so annoying you guys never fight, you guys never argue.

Speaker 1 4:35

You're just so perfect. It's like nah, like we're two people that have two completely different ideas of what life is supposed to look like, what life would ideally look like and what's within our capabilities we don't think the same in any of those three categories, none of them so when those three categories include so much of life, that includes just a lot of space for us to bump heads and have conflict and I posted um on my instagram, something I said in therapy this week to one of my clients, and it's um that conflict isn't the opposite of love, or conflict isn't the enemy of love, avoidance is the enemy of love, and we we found that out the hard way.

Speaker 1 5:16

Thankfully we've been able to get a tourniquet and stop the bleeding before it completely drained our marriage, but it's still something we're working on, so we want to bring that conversation here and kind of talk about how we work through it.

When Invisible Loads Collide

Speaker 2 5:27

Let's break down that quote. What did you say? Conflict is not the enemy of love. Avoidance is, I feel like that's the bar, but I feel like you need to break that down a little bit.

Speaker 1 5:37

So when we think of love, love is this big concept, because love is a feeling and love is also an emotional expression. It's both of those. So it can show itself in a lot of different ways, and love doesn't just come in a perfect package. Love comes with disappointment. Sometimes love is accompanied by disappointment. Sometimes love is accompanied by jealousy. Sometimes love is accompanied by jealousy. Sometimes love is accompanied by resentment.

Speaker 1 6:04

In the presence of the resentment, jealousy and all those negative feelings. They're not the absence of love, they kind of coexist in the same place. So sometimes people think that just that conflict means that there's no love, when in all actuality love is something that needs to be continuously worked on. It doesn't just exist unless you have a child, Unless it's a parent-child relationship and that's a totally different, different universe, but in a romantic relationship like we conscientiously chose each other.

Speaker 1 6:32

So the love has to constantly be remolded as we grow. I mean, of course, we grow together, but we're also growing in two separate directions we individuals so.

Speaker 1 6:42

But when you avoid it, you avoid the hard conversations, you avoid the uh, the hard stopping points, you avoid the disruption of what feels like peace and balance in your relationship for the sake of saying the thing that's kind of sharp and and doesn't feel good to put on the table. But it's necessary to go through this in order for your love to continue to build and grow. It's easy to sidestep the hard conversation. It's easy to yeah, baby, everything's okay. It's easy to do that. It is, and I get why we still do that a lot, because you got to go along, to get along sometimes. But that avoidance it's just, man, it's like them credit cards they give you when you're in college, and then the credit card interest rate be 15, and then somebody else buy the credit card. They say, hey, the next time you swipe it your interest rate gonna be 28, that's what avoidance does?

Speaker 1 7:30

every time you you swipe that card, the interest rate done went up, higher and higher. Now you're paying 56 interest. Oh my god, 56 interest on a conflict or disagreement that you could have handled when the interest rate was much more manageable.

Speaker 2 7:44

That's what I mean no, I love that and it's like what I'm hearing is like I think a lot of times people just run away from the discomfort of the real in a relationship like it's not.

Speaker 1 7:54

I used to enjoy running away from that. I mean I don't want to deal with it.

Speaker 2 7:57

I think that's human nature, the way that relationships, especially like marriages and love, is sold to us, that it's this like happily ever after kind of thing, and it's just like the moment that we are comfortable with discomfort, we realize like that's a part of it. It's not going to be perfect forever, and just imagine if you're that person that lives in that fairytale space the first time that y'all get into an argument and you come back and the energy is weird. I can see people throwing their hands up and be like this ain't what I signed up for, this isn't what I want. So hopefully like this will kind of open your eyes into like what relationships really look, like it's even though it might look perfect on the outside. Trust me, some going on in there, in there healthy, functional relationships for sure.

Speaker 2 8:38

Okay, so now that we're talking about disagreements and, and I guess, issues in the marriage or issues in a partnership, do you think that we quote-unquote like fight fair?

Speaker 2 8:49

yeah, yeah, you think we've always been like that. No one thing I could honestly say is that we've come a long way, but I still think that like it could have been worse, like and the reason why I'm saying that is because, like, clearly you're not my first serious relationship. I've had some issues before, before you, when it comes to just disagreements in general, but, like, I would say that you were one of the more mature people that I've ever dated, like, even though we definitely had some issues, like it wasn't as bad as I anticipated, like there was no, like name calling, there was no. Like I mean, there was a bit of avoidance. I will definitely say that, but I feel like that's human nature, but I feel like we came in pretty like okay as humans yeah like starting point, wouldn't you say I would say I think my definition of those type of things is what?

Speaker 1 9:38

because I have a very low tolerance for people who name call yeah, I told you, I don't know if I can share that story and I sit down, so I'll save that for another day.

Conflict vs. Avoidance in Love

Speaker 1 9:45

No, go ahead, man it's the, the, the girl I told you about who. I had just come back from a long trip and she called me up and she was like hey, I'm trying to see you. It's a new restaurant down the street, let's try it. I'm like, yeah, I just got back from africa like I'm tired. She was like, come on, let's, let's go. I'm like, nah, I'm, I'm good, I'm just gonna slide through.

Speaker 2 10:06

It's like all right I remember the story, the big dummy. I give her my address. Why did I?

Speaker 1 10:10

do that. Like I told you, I didn't want to, whatever. So she ends up, uh, pulling up. She said I'm downstairs and I said yo, I'm real tired. I'll come holler at you for a second, but I'm tired. And I came downstairs and she said something to the equivalent of man just hop in the car.

Speaker 2 10:26

Stop being a bitch kid don't like that, he don't like that, he don't like that done what in your mind makes you feel like that's okay to say to me?

Speaker 1 10:43

what makes you because oh, no, no, I'm lying. She said that on the phone and she said I'm pulling up and I said oh yeah. And when she pulled up, like, what makes you feel like that's okay to say?

Speaker 1 10:52

to me and I'm sure it caught her pretty privileged, you know, saying man, let her get away with that all the time. And she got, just hop in the car. I said, nah, I said you need to watch your mouth when you talk to me. You're incredibly disrespectful and rude. And uh, she ended up just pulling off, almost ran over my foot. Whoa, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like at that moment I realized there's nothing you could ever do to rebound from that, because I don't do name calling, it's unnecessary you don't need to do that to get my attention.

Speaker 1 11:21

I'm a conscious man. Like you can get my attention without yelling, screaming and just being completely off color and rude. So uh, yeah, I don't. I don't tolerate that.

Speaker 2 11:31

I got a very low sensitivity to name calling he really does, and that comes with anybody like, not just in in romantic relationships just in general.

Speaker 1 11:39

Well, dudes will do that to get a rise out of you, but you know I like you, gotta stop yeah, you, you, you could hold your own. Definitely, definitely it's one of my hobbies. You know what I'm saying almost, almost too much.

Speaker 2 11:52

Meanwhile I'm over here real sensitive and he'd be like joking, like don't joke with me, like that, that'll hurt my feelings you know I know we veering off but you know like on the back of the public transportation.

Speaker 1 12:01

Any city kid who ever caught public transportation know in the back as well. The delinquent kids are the delinquent. I enjoyed the back of the bus a lot and sometimes, like the kids just start roasting everybody and then I'm like please pick me, please pick me. As soon as he picked me, I'm like yes, it's go time. I was relentless in my neighborhood with roasting I was horrible, I believe it. Oh, I was so bad man I love every moment of it.

Speaker 1 12:22

I love that I'm a therapist. I can see your insecurities. I just don't exploit it.

Speaker 2 12:26

Let's continue the conversation okay, going back to conflict, I feel like you're in your bag and I feel like you're really in your therapist bag, so I want to lean into that a little bit more. So, if we wanted to, I don't know like go over, like what are the foundations of like healthy conflict? Because I feel like that's where we are now, um, but sometimes it's really hard for me to kind of put it into perspective without, like you know, it being kind of organized and analyzed so I can see, okay, yeah, I can see how I do that. Or maybe I need to do a little bit more of this, like as a therapist and, you know, clearly, an active person in a, in a healthy I would say, a healthy marriage, like what would you say are like I don't know, maybe like two or three things that you feel like we do. That's been really helpful in like getting us to where we I think we have healthy conflicts, at least when they do arise.

Speaker 1 13:16

I think one of them is understanding triggers.

Speaker 1 13:19

I know that sounds very cookie cutter, you know very boilerplate, but I think it's understanding your triggers not just saying these things trigger me in, in having awareness of them, but really understanding your triggers, knowing what is going to make you feel a certain way before it even happens, and that allows you to set some ground rules, like, if you're arguing even I don't like name calling if you, if we're in the heat of a passionate discussion and you call me on my name, I'm going to point it out to you that you did that please don't do that because that's going to make this go left and this.

Speaker 1 13:50

We don't have to do that. So let's just be respectful. I'll never call you out of your name. Just don't do that to me it's fine so I think it's understanding what your triggers are early and communicating them to the other person.

Speaker 2 14:00

Hopefully you're in conflict with a person that can hear that, yeah, absorb that, and then reflect back at you that they heard and absorbed it um, but I think it's understanding those triggers um can I stop you real quick, even when you're talking about understand, because I'm trying to see how I fit into all of this. I don't know that like name calling is a trigger for me, but something that came to mind is like being dismissed or not being acknowledged yeah, and I feel like dismissing and validate is a huge trigger for you, and I think I don't remember which argument it was, I think it was Hawaii we actually did a sit down talk about our argument in Hawaii.

Speaker 2 14:39

We'll plug it in somewhere. And it wasn't until then that I realized, like, how big like those issues that issue was for me. Because, like, like I said, it wasn't until then that I realized, like, how big like those issues that issue was for me. Because, like, like I said, it wasn't until then that I realized, like, how it affected all of the things that bothered me. Because sometimes, like when we think about the things that bother us in a relationship, it's mad surface level. Like I don't like the fact that he expects me to wash uh, wash the dishes and cook. That's crazy. But it's not about that and at least in this situation it wasn't about that. It was just like I feel like I'm doing all these things and I'm not being acknowledged, or I'm doing all these things but because it's easy for some person, like for one person. They think it's easy for me too.

Speaker 1 15:15

And it's not. This thing is uniquely hard for me and I need your acknowledgement for sure, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that?

Speaker 2 15:21

yeah, yeah, and you know, I just say all of that to say like, especially as you're listening to the sit down, talk like, even if the triggers that we're talking about aren't necessarily things that you can relate to, there's something there.

Speaker 1 15:32

And.

Speaker 2 15:32

I think it just requires, like really sitting and thinking about like what's the deeper issue here?

Speaker 1 15:37

And you know, dang, you just sparked my mind because sometimes it's not even about I don't. Sometimes, in the heat of conflict, I don't know if it's the best time to say hey, you know, watch your effing mouth or don't talk to me like that, unless it's really something that's going to impede the process of healing.

Speaker 2 15:54

You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 15:54

Unless it's something that's really going to cause an issue or a major fracture, that's not going to be productive. But I think it's good to have those conversations when emotions are not elevated. Just a babe like just general conversation. Man, you remember, you can even you can backdoor, the joint to make it not not have as many teeth. So I remember that time when you was joking and you called me a bitch.

Speaker 2 16:17

You don't do that. I don't like that man.

Speaker 1 16:20

I would really appreciate if you don't do that, and what's even better is if you could bring examples non-romantic examples from your life, like you remember when my cousin eddie called me a that one time and how upset I got at him yeah or dang. I don't like that, because why so many people calling you? Because?

Speaker 2 16:36

that's clearly your trigger. That's okay, because you know I mean you're, you're relating it to what, so maybe let's let's do another that's such a stereotypical male trigger, though, especially like black men from the project. Yeah, for sure, because that being called I mean don't nobody call me so like don't nobody call me a believer but it's, it's yeah the times that it did happen.

The Evolution of Fighting Fair

Speaker 2 16:57

It sticks out in my mind so much, it's so magnified I love the example that you, that you just said, but my fear is and the reason why I say this because, because I've been like this, I would have like a running list of things that bother me and when I get a chance to tell you, I just go and I think that tone really matters there, like remember that time you did, but I didn't like that and, matter of fact, I also didn't like this and I also didn't like this. So how do you control the climate of the conversation? And let me know if I've done this, because I'm really trying to find practical ways in myself that I do this, or maybe I need to work harder in some areas to do it. But it's like, how do you know it's a good time to bring up a grievance, but also do it in a way where you don't provide space for your partner to be defensive, like like I think this is great advice and I know we do this, but I'm trying to like how? Yeah?

Speaker 2 17:53

how and when right and like how do you know it's a safe space to do that?

Speaker 1 17:58

the real answer. I don't think anybody going like this, by getting it wrong, by getting it wrong I think, that's one of the best way mistakes are going to happen. Mistakes are beautiful opportunities to see where the flaws in your relationship are and where you need to build and fortify. So real talk by getting it wrong and there being a huge falling out and then there being repair and reconciliation after you know what?

Speaker 1 18:20

you're absolutely right and then the next time it may happen again, but maybe it doesn't happen the same exact way. And then repair and reconciliation. The problem is this like relationship bias that we carry, where we think we only got to tell our partner something once and like that that ain't true for you at work. How many times stop reading?

Speaker 1 18:40

me reading you. Like every time I gotta sit in my, in my whole duffel and be like man. I know I've told her this before, but she got so much stuff going on. I know it's just not top of mind right now, but I don't feel like I should have to tell you this. That's, that's not a thing that's not true.

Speaker 2 18:58

That's a bar. That's a bar, though wow because you're giving like real examples of giving grace, because that's what it requires giving grace.

Speaker 1 19:07

It don't feel good most of the time. What?

Speaker 2 19:09

that means people. Sometimes people think giving grace is just letting people walk all over you. I think in your example, giving grace is putting yourself in your partner's frame of mind and trying to understand what one, where they're coming from.

Speaker 2 19:23

But also I know we talked about this in another vlog assume, positive assume positive intent, like it's not that I'm not listening to cure because I don't care. He just said I got a whole bunch of other things in my mind. Or maybe I do think I'm listening, maybe I do think I'm doing a good job.

Speaker 1 19:37

This is my interpretation of fixing it, and this is just totally off comparative to what yours is yeah, I can just.

Speaker 2 19:43

I can just really relate when you were saying like sometimes you have to get it wrong, like just being completely vulnerable. I got it wrong a lot in the beginning. I got it wrong a lot. I think I entered the relationship thinking that I was more mature than you because I had been in more, you know, long-term relationships that I knew more than you did and you know like I kind of had a leg up and I remember like the first time that we had like a major argument where you were vulnerable with me for the first time. It's still like this. It's been 10 years since this happened and I still lose sleep over it sometimes and I think for a long time I wish I never offended you, I wish I never hurt you like I wish I just knew better. But there's no way I would have learned from that situation.

Speaker 1 20:25

I'm glad that it happened because it was a total turner point in our relationship. Also, I've never dated a woman who didn't believe in her heart and mind that she was more emotionally mature than me it's like a baseline bias that every woman I've ever dated came in with, and they be so wrong every time.

Speaker 1 20:44

And it also makes me think of another component of fight and fear, and that's the established boundaries which we kind of talked about. And boundaries aren't my opportunity to tell you what you're not going to do. It's my opportunity to tell you what I'm comfortable happening around me and to me you know, um, and it doesn't have to be harsh like, hey, these are my boundaries and non-negotiables. I think we've like social media. Uh, slash reality tv the hell out of that entire concept.

Speaker 1 21:12

Yeah, it's not always that provocative. Sometimes it's just like, hey, like this is just where I am with it. I'm not expecting you to acquiesce, but I'm telling you where my comfort is, like where do we meet? In the middle, and for some people they'll be like that ain't setting boundaries. You're giving them too much leeway. It's my boundary, is always going to be my boundary, but I'm testing to see how you can meet me there. Yeah, because, just because that's my requisite, that doesn't mean that that's within your, your realm of capability, and if it's not, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna up in this relationship. It just means like we just got work to do to try to meet each other where we at going back to the work, like you're talking about how love and relationship is constant work.

Speaker 2 21:51

It's not just a perfect puzzle piece fitting into the situation. Sometimes you gotta bend that, sometimes you gotta cut some yeah, like the joint, so you can squeeze in there.

Speaker 1 22:00

Yeah, yeah, it'd be like.

Speaker 2 22:02

I love that example okay, so we talked about setting boundaries, we talked about triggers. What else do you think we do?

Learning When to Pause Arguments

Speaker 1 22:11

Ooh, I know what Well, we used to not be good at this. But knowing when to pause, Yo, we go toe to toe. That was the hardest skill to get good at Remember how we would get up not all night, but like we'll just be beating a dead horse Going saying the same thing over and over and over Because we both wanted to be right. That's really where it came from we both wanted to be right and we both wanted to be heard and we both wanted to be validated.

Speaker 2 22:38

Oh man, that's the trio right there, and it don't.

Speaker 1 22:40

It's like you can't play baseball, when two people got bats Like who throwing the ball? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 22:54

it ain't working and it wasn't working for us, and I just remember my idea of getting my point across to you was being louder, and I don't respond well, and then you shut down and I'm like you're shutting down.

Speaker 1 23:00

So now you told me all the stuff that's wrong with me and now you're shutting down and you can't stand to hear what's wrong with you. You have no accountability now and that's. That's a. That's an unfair assessment, but it makes sense how you can think of that though how you can get there.

Speaker 2 23:17

I'm trying to think how how we made it like one thing that I really pride our relationship on is like cure feels so safe to me. You know know what I mean and like, realistically, like you didn't always feel that way to me, you know what I mean and I'm trying to figure out how we got here.

Speaker 1 23:36

I know one way we did. You should tell me like I was good with Paul. No, that's not true. Sometimes I wasn't good with Paul. That's not true, I was. I remember when I would pause. Your chief complaint was you would pause you. You said, kid, you pause a relationship but you don't ever come back. Yeah, so now I'm just stuck with these up in the air feelings and you just moving around like everything's fine.

Speaker 2 23:57

Yeah, I didn't realize that until she said I'm like damn. At first I rejected it no, I don't.

Speaker 1 24:02

I do come back, and then I had to pause you might come back, but now you might.

Speaker 2 24:06

You don't speak you around but you didn't speak for me for two days. Remember one time we went to therapy and we had an argument a week prior and I remember he asked like so how has it been since the argument? And I was like we haven't spoken. He's like when was the argument? I was like a week ago. He's like so y'all haven't spoken in a week. I'm like not if we didn't have to talk about something with the kids.

Speaker 1 24:29

We didn't speak. That's about it.

Speaker 2 24:30

Baby that it used to kill me, I realize it used to kill me.

Speaker 2 24:34

And I feel like going back to the foundations, like that boundaries part, like I think sometimes people have to recognize when you setting boundaries could also be painful to the other person. Like there, there has to be an end time to walking away or pausing. And for me, because I've already been shut down, because I know exactly how you feel, I feel terrible for how you feel, whether or not I feel like I did it. But now I don't feel like I can come to you and talk to you.

Speaker 2 25:01

You know what I mean. So I'm stuck dealing with my guilt. I'm also stuck dealing with feelings that I didn't let out, and now I feel like I don't have a right to explain any grievances that I have.

Speaker 1 25:11

Why would you feel like you don't have a right?

Speaker 2 25:12

Because you weren't speaking to me. You said everything that you had to say. You are overwhelmed. You got other stuff to do. Who am I to come in and be like and make that worse, Because you already feel that's?

Speaker 1 25:23

real, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 25:24

That's very, that's really I mean we've both been unfair to each other in a relationship. But, like I mean, that's the whole part of working through it I also, at some point, I had to learn and not shut down, and one thing that I definitely learned in those moments is sometimes, when I feel, when I take our arguments as an attack I'm a lawyer I go back and I have my points. When you said this and blah blah, I had to get away from that. I had to to be like okay, I understand how you feel, but now it's my time and I needed to take that time for me to talk about how I felt and focus on how I felt versus how you made me feel or how you did this. And I think that I had to soften my tone a little bit, because I had to acknowledge that you were hurt too, and I think a lot of times, just because you're hurt, it doesn't mean the other person isn't hurt too and like, yes, that was hard as hell, because I can't imagine.

Speaker 2 26:21

I mean just knowing who you are as a person. We are very similar in how we feel, like we deserve to feel our feelings and we deserve to to to stay our peace, I think that's some way that we're really similar and the same way that you, you would. You would be in the back waiting for somebody to join you. I'm always waiting for somebody to come to me some bull, because I'm ready. I have all of these imaginary situations in my head.

Speaker 1 26:39

Comment below if you, if you do that, I am.

Speaker 2 26:42

I am ready. I might be quiet and I might be chill, but do not come for me. You will end up crying. Just don't do it. It's like a.

Speaker 2 26:50

It's like the napoleon effect I know this about myself very much in the pool you know, and and it was very difficult when, when I respect your boundaries, I love you but like I just fundamentally didn't agree with what you said, but that's not even my grievance. I'm over here like I can't. My my job is is not to present a rebuttal. My job is to state my case.

Speaker 1 27:10

Can we drill down on?

Speaker 2 27:11

that a little bit, that's a really mature perspective.

Speaker 1 27:14

That, I think, is difficult for a lot of people. What encourages you to be that way? What's the inspiration to go from? I'm a lawyer, I'm a build my case. I'm a say my piece. I'm a deflect. I'm not going to let you pin me down to a. You deserve to be heard. To let me soften my tone, because some people think that you lose power when you soften your tone, especially when we have a lot of um, uh stereotypes about men kind of being infantized a little bit, so it's like I'm not gonna tone down.

Speaker 1 27:45

The world tones down enough things. And babies men, I'm not gonna baby this man. Like how did you overcome or move away from that?

Speaker 2 27:52

I think that it had a lot to do with us getting to a place where you were more vulnerable. Unfortunately, it took you taking the first step. It took you first taking the first step going from. I don't like it when you do this to, it hurts my feelings when you do this. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 28:11

And, like we see, especially if you're on TikTok right now, there's this whole like movement, at least on my timeline where it's like the soft life and you know women being in your femininity and men kind of catering to that and softening the tone. Like I remember I saw one, like you know, my girl's my little baby. Like you piss her off. I got to handle it Like that's my girl, I want to make sure she's good and I think, like looking at you like you're my partner, you're my baby, you're my man, like I want to make sure that my man is happy up emotionally to me, made me see you in that way. I think sometimes when you mad and you a man, you're a strong man and this is what happens and that's like it's really hard to not be defensive yeah, people forget that you got a water cactus.

Speaker 1 29:01

Yeah that's.

Speaker 2 29:04

That's the analogy I always use with men.

Speaker 2 29:06

People forget that you have a water cactus or you will die and I love that and I think, like it takes both I don't really subscribe to the feminine and the masculine like I definitely think that there are things that we can take from that that work, but I think it just goes back to being a human, like when you are somebody's son you know what I mean one like you're a human that's dealing with the same insecurities, the same that I'm dealing with, and like like you're my teammate here, and when you don't feel good, I feel that I feel that energy, I don't feel good. So I think I had to get to a place where I really looked at you as my partner, versus like as stereotypical as the sound, but instead of looking at you as a man that's supposed to take care of me and a man that's supposed to do, and I'm the woman and you know I'm the flower. You know what I mean.

Vulnerability as a Relationship Tool

Speaker 2 29:50

I think I had to not only soften my tone but like soften the way that I look at you and I think once I saw, once you kind of opened up and I saw like how certain things hurt you or how certain things bother you, or even how my tone affects you. It just I don't know. I just saw. I saw the human in you and because I love so much like I don't want you to feel that way, and knowing that you felt the same way that I felt and we both want the same thing, I was like this can't be right. There has to be another way. So you being more emotionally vulnerable with me helped me be emotionally vulnerable with you.

Speaker 1 30:26

That's beautiful, by the way. I think you just set a lot of people free yeah.

Speaker 2 30:30

Let me just say one more point.

Speaker 2 30:32

And I think a lot of that just comes from the fact that, like, yes, I'm a woman, but I wasn't open. I've been hurt a lot, you know, by men. I think I was really skeptical, kind of coming into the relationship because I didn't want to be hurt again. And I think a lot of times I had this wall up just to make sure that if it didn't work I can walk away and be okay. You know what I mean. But that don't work. Like it didn't work. We had gotten to a place where there was no more growth and I had to, I had to put that wall down in order to for us to move forward.

Speaker 1 31:04

I'm just really glad it worked out, because it would have been bad I'm glad that you gave me the opportunity to surprise you, you know, and you did and you still do, and I love you for it but you know what I think? That just speaks to this bigger concept of relationships being a perpetual cycle of give a little to get a little. You know, you couldn't soften the tone until I was more vulnerable. I couldn't be more vulnerable until I was sure you understood you couldn't show me that you understood till you were sure I understood.

Speaker 1 31:29

How do I do that? By coming back to you after conflict. I couldn't come back to you after conflict until I was sure that we could have more than just an exchange of. This is the way I feel. We couldn't do that until we had mistakes and we grew from them.

Speaker 2 31:42

Like it's a every piece of your relationship builds on top of the next, and like this never-ending cycle, but it has to start somewhere and both people have to be willing to do it yeah and I think a lot of times.

Speaker 1 31:54

You can listen to this vlog and take down notes and whatever, but if only one person in the relationship is doing the work, it's never gonna gotta be both it's never gonna work, it gotta be both it's never gonna work in perpetuity, like there's gonna be a time where one person is doing the heavy lifting, or one person has to be the bigger person or the one that starts the process, and it may be a year or two before the other person clicks in like this. This whole thing we talking about this was over the course of three years for real.

Speaker 1 32:19

All in all, it's been over the course of 10 years but it's been over the course of three years and that's so scary because I always say you don't know in relationships whether your next step is up the ladder or off a cliff, and the longer you stay it could work out or it could not, and that goes beyond discernment. It's hard to tell who people are until they really reveal it to you, and that takes time. But that's, that's kind of like what it is. It's. It's building this thing up, um, and and hoping that your partner gives you enough for you to give them enough for them to give you enough, and then let that thing keep going like that.

Speaker 2 32:52

It's work, man, I didn't know that was beautiful what you said. Really, yeah, I never heard you say that like that before. Yeah, I've had 10 years to figure it out. Yeah, man.

Speaker 1 33:01

That's absolutely good. That makes me feel lucky. Yeah, man, yeah, yeah, yeah oh, I could cry.

Speaker 2 33:08

Yeah, you can cry a little bit, if you want to but I mean, we talked about this off camera, whatever.

Speaker 2 33:13

But um, I've had a lot of um. You know I don't be getting emotional like this. This is very strange for me, but I've just gained a lot of like flashbacks, of like points in my life where I really felt low or felt like disrespected or felt, you know, misunderstood in relationships and um, a lot of that fear um comes up every now and then where I have to kind of remind myself like you're not them. You know what I mean, I'm not there and I'm safe. And it's just like I don't know if there are other women that can relate, but it's like I've never felt so safe in a relationship. It's like, wow, like I find I'm there, like I'm safe, I can trust him, he trusts me. You know there's no, there's no ill intent and like I hate.

Speaker 2 34:04

I hate the fact like, in essence, I'm crying over past relationships, but it's just like seeing how far I've come and seeing all the work that I've done and seeing like how I didn't deserve those things. You know what I mean, as normal as that sounds, but I'm just really glad to be here, I'm really glad to feel safe, I'm really glad to be respected, I'm really glad that, like my daughters get to see this. So it's like tears, like I'm finally able to let that go. You know, it took a really long time to let that go, but I'm finally at a place where it's just like that's just a thing that happened. That's something that helped shape who I am today and I deserve this relationship. I deserve to be here. Like being married to a therapist is very hard because they be having all the answers. You know like we'll get into arguments and he'll be like babe, like that's not good because X, y and Z, and she's like, oh yeah, that isn't good.

Speaker 1 34:58

You're right, you're right.

Speaker 2 35:01

So it can be very intimidating because you feel like you're not prepared for this journey, because you don't have all the tools. But like moments like this really helped me see that we're a partnership, you know, and it's like I contribute just as much the learning of our relationship as you do, so yeah this was not scripted. Y'all. I don't know what I look like, but we just gonna keep going can I hug, hug you. No, because I'm going to cry more. Hug me afterwards.

Speaker 1 35:32

I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I'm thankful that you're. Your heart allows your eyes to see what's in front of you.

Speaker 1 35:40

Oh man, it's so hard, you know it's so hard and if you're watching this and you could resonate with no Amy's story, I don't think that's uncommon. I think whenever experiences happen to you to have a profound effect on just the way that you see that situation whether it be a mother-daughter relationship or mother-son, father-son, father-daughter whatever I think that it's easy for your heart to distort your eyes and even though those experiences happen to you and they're not happening to you now, that's not what's in front of you. Sometimes your heart won't allow your eyes to see that, or things that kind of look familiar start to feel like threats and you can sabotage your own relationship. So if you are in that space, I hope that you can find a clarity and you can find a community, that you can find a healing to move past that and be able to see the beauty that's just bountiful all around you. Look around this. There you know. Hope your heart allow your eyes to see that.

Repairing After Arguments

Speaker 1 36:38

So what did we learn from that? We learned that some of the common mistakes are not using I statements but using you statements. Yeah, I'm using blaming and accusatory language. Yeah, stonewalling or not talking to your partner and avoidance, cleverly moving around the problem, hoping that it goes away. When emory was little. Uh, sydney right now is the world's worst hiding seeker. My youngest child, you'll count, she'll stand in the middle of the floor like this I can see you. You know, I'm saying and I think sometimes we do that with relationships like, oh, if I stay still long enough, this problem will just go away and no one will see it. Now, it's still going to exist. It just may transform and be fortified by resentment. So I think one of the most important pieces of all of this is the repair piece. What do you do to repair? And one of the hardest things to do for a lot of folks. It comes easy to me and I think I underestimated that. I think I underestimated that Easier now?

Speaker 2 37:40

Oh hey, I never dated myself.

Speaker 1 37:42

You more of an expert on that than I am, but it's the apology piece you know saying I'm sorry, having it be a legitimate apology without an explanation of why afterwards having it be a sincere apology where you're not you're not just sorry for the way that something made someone feel You're sorry that it happened. You know you're sorry that you're sorry for your piece. In it you're taking full accountability without feeling like you're losing power. That apology piece is so important but it's it's hard for a lot of folks oh, yeah, I can.

Speaker 2 38:16

Even I can acknowledge one way that it's really hard, because because one I love how you mentioned this, but I feel like apologizing just in general has always been harder for me than for you, because I think sometimes people need to hear the apology because they need to hear the apology and I think there's somebody who need to say the apology because they actually believe in the apology and like this kind of goes back to the whole Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 2 38:41

My 90s public school education is kicking in, so say that again because I'm talking around the issue, because I didn't want to put all our business out there. But whatever, I think that I'm looking back to a lot of our arguments and I think sometimes for you it would be like why is it so hard for you to just say sorry? And then for me it's like I can't say sorry if I don't mean it. I don't like appeasing people, I don't feel like that's fair. And I think sometimes, at least for me, after argument, after a disagreement, after some type of misunderstanding, because, like I think, the way that you're way more emotionally aware in the way that you process your feelings, so I think you think so I?

Speaker 2 39:16

do I do, I do. I think that in arguments or in disagreements that we've had, hearing back what you say, it's very clear to me, hearing back what I say, that's not really what I meant, and I've just come to realize that I need a little bit more time to sit with my feelings in order to explain what I mean.

Speaker 1 39:43

Wow, ok, that's new to me because I feel I feel the inverse way. I feel like you're so clear with the way that you think and you can process how things make you feel so fast.

Speaker 2 39:48

You put together such a compelling argument as to why it made you feel that way and why it's wrong the word what, and, and you know what it is for me when you kick back what I say, like it's not what I meant. So, while it might have been like a really nice speech, I just don't think I'm as vulnerable as you. I think I'm more matter. Maybe it's not like a, maybe it's not like a what I'm saying, but it's like the emotion that I'm trying to put forward.

Speaker 1 40:15

I mean it could also be a comprehension issue on my side where I'm just kicking back something because I didn't read it right.

Speaker 2 40:20

But we're also two different people that grew up two different ways and like. The reason why I say that is because, like for you, you're so satisfied At least it seems to me that you are so satisfied by me just sitting and apologizing. You know what I mean. Like I don't need an I'm sorry from anybody. Like I'm not somebody that I don't dislike, apologies, but I know I don't need it. I'm more about immediate changed action and I feel like in the moment, you're more about acknowledging what happened in this situation.

Speaker 1 40:47

You say that, but I disagree. You used to be like that. You used to be. I don't care about apologies. Now you need an apology, especially if it's if it's not, I won't say specifically egregious, but you're more of an I need an apology person now, because I remember you used to say that and then it shifted one day yeah maybe you didn't even apologize Since when do you care about apologies?

Speaker 2 41:09

You know what, and maybe you're not like that anymore either. Like maybe, maybe we've still be my Well, I know.

Speaker 2 41:17

I know that, but I guess I'm thinking overall. Maybe from you it's different because of, like, the shared life that we've lived and the way that we've kind of molded this relationship, but maybe from like other people, I know for me, like I need to know that you understand why I'm hurt, and I think what I'm basically trying to say is I'm okay if you don't have the apology right now. You know what I mean. Like, of course, get to it eventually. But I think what's more important to me is knowing that the person understand that I'm hurt, maybe, is apologetic or feel some type of remorse, but also wants to do better.

Speaker 2 41:50

I don't want it. I'm sorry just because you feel bad. Like I want us to have that follow up conversation. I want us to regroup, I want us to come back after the pause and not be weird anymore. I think that's where it all kind of comes from. Like you know, when you apologize to your partner after argument and it's like y'all kind of over it, but it still hurt feelings and then it's mad, weird, like energy yeah, I hate that part.

Speaker 2 42:13

Like I hate that part and I do bounce back quick. So I'm like I want to go back to like giggling and holding hands and kissing and all of that stuff and it it's like if we not on the same page. Now I'm going to be upset about something completely new that has nothing to do with the argument.

Speaker 1 42:25

I can tell you in that space you always want to laugh and shit, You're laughing at it. It's funny. I'm still mad.

Speaker 2 42:31

You over there ain't nothing funny. But how do you resolve that? Because we talk a lot about you know making that, because we talk, we talk a lot about you know making sure that we have space after our argument to think through our feelings. I think everybody needs individual space to just recalibrate and see how you feel. But it's just like how do you go back to that? Is it okay to not go back to that immediately, and how long is too long to not go back to that?

Speaker 1 42:59

I don't know. I think that's just going to depend on you and your partner, but I do think a post-argument ritual was a good practice, like real time. I remember one time we were beefing for a while and then you popped up at my job. We went to lunch, we went to pot bellies and we had the best conversation because we weren't angry at each other and we were outside of the house. We were in a public space so we had to get real close and talk it was we.

Speaker 1 43:22

Sometimes we walk, walk and talk it out. Sometimes y'all need some space, like I'll just go out for the day and then come back. Sometimes it's cool to go out and then have a telephone call. Sometimes, being in proximity to somebody, it just like you all up on me, I can feel your you-ness all along get off me dog. Yeah, sometimes it's just about just being in a different environment to catch a different vibe it just depends on what your post-virtual is.

Speaker 1 43:46

Some people it's, it's a sexual thing. You know, sometimes after, after that, just that, that exchange of physicality yeah um, it's there's. There aren't many actions that give you more of the feel-good chemicals in your brain and the skin to skin, the closeness. It's just a lot with that. That can also be. That's a slippery slope.

Speaker 2 44:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1 44:07

You got to be, because that can be dangerous. Y'all ain't work on nothing, but y'all bumping uglies because it feels good. And now there's no resolution. Y'all still beefing, but, like you, you get trained to do that when the beef gets hot and you don't really repair.

Speaker 2 44:21

There needs to be more intentionality behind that, yeah.

Speaker 1 44:26

So if you're going to bump, you know you're going to bump uglies.

Speaker 2 44:28

I've never heard bump uglies before, but I think it's so funny. I've been trying it.

Speaker 1 44:32

I don't know. I love it. You've been bumping uglies I love it. Where did you get that?

Speaker 2 44:48

from you, bump an old turner.

Speaker 1 44:48

Yeah, it's like one of them turns oh for pete's sake, or heaven's the betsy. It's like one of them tight joints. What? Oh heaven's the betsy? What does that mean? Oh man, you gotta man listen. American idioms and slang from the 80s are the best. Oh heaven's the bet, oh christ, oh, jesus, mary and joseph like those.

Final Thoughts on Growth Through Conflict

Speaker 2 44:56

Yeah, I've heard that before. I'm also catholic, so I've heard that before. My parents actually moved here in like mid 80s. So there's a lot of stuff that I just have no idea, and then the way that I learned it from my parents are incorrect. Can you imagine an immigrant who's just learning English speaking in idioms? I messed it all up Looking like an idiot American.

Speaker 1 45:15

English is such a complicated language it really is. It's like a giant inside joke.

Speaker 2 45:19

Yes, that's exactly it. That's exactly it.

Speaker 1 45:22

I don't know how anybody gets it done. Are we done?

Speaker 2 45:39

I want to end it with what are some like takeaways that I feel like the audience can really like get to at least start the process on, you know, maybe just incorporating one or maybe just changing their frame of mind, because I feel like this is such a constant, you know, comment that we see about you guys. You guys don't look like you argue, you know, this is just the perfect relationship, like nah, it's not perfect, we just got some strategies in our, in our toolkit that we can just bring out when it's a little too heavy. But I do have another thing that just came to mind.

Speaker 2 45:57

I think, if you're the person that's bringing up the disagreement, thinking about what your intentions are. Sometimes the intention is I need to make him understand that blah, blah, blah, blah, or make her understand. I don't know that that approach always works and I think like being really mindful of what you want to say in that conversation, because it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation. And how many of us started with an uncomfortable conversation that we didn't think through and it ended up turning ridiculously ugly? I mean, that happens to me all the time.

Speaker 1 46:30

I raise a foot if I feel it so.

Speaker 2 46:31

I think like an example could be like, let's say, you are feeling some type of resentment or you need something in the relationship that you're not getting, need something in the relationship that you're not getting. You know, starting with the intention of like I want this person to understand that I feel this way versus I want this person to understand that they're doing this thing.

Speaker 2 46:49

I guess it kind of goes with the IU statement, but like it's not just what you say, it's what you intend to like you know what I mean, what you intend the conversation to look like, and if you don't have good intentions, maybe this't this the best time to bring up this conversation, and that's okay, you know you know what?

Speaker 1 47:07

I think this would be a great because we could delve into this in much deeper detail. Let us know in the comments below if y'all think we should do a webinar where we go into like this type of thing and it can just be live. It'll be like this, but it'll be much more in depth, much more structured and it'll allow people to walk away with a better understanding. Put it in the things below and let us know if you think that's a good idea.

Speaker 2 47:29

That would be so much fun. That'll be so much fun. Well then, in that case, let's for real land this plane, because we can literally talk for two, three more hours about this, like I'm in my bag now.

Speaker 1 47:43

I got a meeting in 15 minutes so I can't do that, but I do. One thing I can do is thank you for coming and being a part of this conversation today. Comment below. Let us know what your takeaways were, what your aha moments were, what you agree with, what you disagree with. Let us know what's up. Also, make sure you hit the subscribe button and notification.

Speaker 2 47:57

People still say that on youtube yes, please do, because people will sit here and watch a whole video and be like, damn, I didn't subscribe yeah, subscribe what you what you doing? Yeah, you take it in a half a second. We're over a hundred thousand subscribers.

Speaker 1 48:11

Let's clap it up for over a hundred thousand. Thank y'all, man. Y'all got us here. It's been hard work, but we got so many dedicated listeners, man, yeah, please binge watch the other other episodes because like the growth, like the growth, what they should binge my stuff son donnell riles um, yeah, like it's, it's been an incredible, incredible journey.

Speaker 2 48:37

I cannot believe we're here. We started this at down talk before we were even married, so it's just those episodes are crazy to look at all the audio look crazy. Audio sound crazy video look crazy we don't, we don't said some immature but like this is. This is real life growth, y'all you can't get here unless you started there.

Speaker 1 48:56

Yeah, you can't. You can't grow, unless you had a cringy moment like it doesn't work that way. But um, yeah, man, we appreciate y'all and we will catch y'all next time on the Sit Down. Talk Y'all, be well, peace.