Distinguishing Between Arguments and Disagreements

Speaker 1 0:00

Man, I usually have something clever to say, but I'm crazy low energy today. Crazy low energy today. I'm going to just call that out off bucks.

Speaker 2 0:07

I just had coffee so I got about 30 minutes of energy before I crash out. It's just, you know, it's one of them days. It's one of them days, man, we're all entitled to them, and that's okay, and that is totally fine.

Speaker 1 0:21

I don't feel no way about it Today. I have conflict with the amount of energy that I have just in my body, mind and spirit.

Speaker 2 0:33

Today we're going to talk about another type of conflict. Oh, you rolling it to me, rolling it to you. So we're going to talk about essentially how to fight fair. Kiera and I have recently kind of shared that we don't argue as much as we used to, but it doesn't mean we don't disagree, and I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out, like how did we get?

Speaker 1 0:49

here. That's such a good distinction, the distinction between argument and disagreement. What's the difference in your mind?

Speaker 2 0:54

In my mind, arguments feel abrasive. It feels like a fight. An argument to me is yelling at each other, whereas like a disagreement is just essentially what it is. We don't agree on a specific subject, a topic, how to handle something, but that is. That is a good distinction to put words to, because I'm not sure that people really distinguish between the two.

Speaker 1 1:18

Just in general yeah, I wasn't even sure I did until you just said something. I think in my mind the difference between an argument and a disagreement is a disagreement is I'm a nerd out a little bit, but it's like it's a divergence of philosophies, is where my philosophy, your philosophy, just don't touch each other, like at all.

Speaker 2 1:38

Yeah, no, I see that.

Speaker 1 1:39

And an argument is a battle of words, you know, through that are trying to express a feeling or protect an emotion.

Speaker 2 1:48

Yeah, would you agree that we don't really argue anymore?

Speaker 1 1:51

Yeah, no, we haven't really argued in a while.

Speaker 2 1:53

Yeah, a lot of disagreements, which is natural, I think yeah.

Speaker 1 1:58

I think the argument part just feels really cumbersome. I think for us you do enough of the pre-work. If you listen to us, you know we talk about getting ahead of stuff all the time, like, talk about it early while it's still a molehill, instead of trying to tackle it once it becomes a mountain, once it's too big. It's not even just about that thing anymore, it's about all the subsequent frustrations you have. So, I think we do that, but yeah. It's been a minute it is, but I think this is like the calm before.

Speaker 2 2:25

It's not like that anymore I think I'm about to start arguing I think we will eventually yeah, speak on that a little bit.

Speaker 1 2:32

I think right now our parenting philosophies are kind of in in line with one another, but I think as the kids get older it's going to start to diverge more and I think, maybe not, maybe not arguing like I don't know what your idea of arguing is, but my idea is just a more vocal, more not heated, not spirited maybe a heated discussion yeah, just just a little bit more heated, because I think the way we disagree is going to dictate like what moves we make in life next, right now, I mean, can we talk about like the she's?

Speaker 1 3:05

like what you want to talk about on camera like we talk every day about selling our house and moving to the city. Yeah, you know we it's. Yeah, we got a lot of big family transitions to make and we're not necessarily on the same page with all of we're gonna get there.

Speaker 2 3:18

You don't think we're on the same page. Let's, let's. You know I'm real big on practical examples. Give me an example because I I disagree with you, not because I fundamentally disagree with you, but I feel like I know something.

Speaker 1 3:29

You know something that I don't know I've been thinking a lot about. So we want to consolidate, like just like, sell the house, move to a nice apartment in the city. It'd be closer to stuff. We're not suburb people. We found that out after building a house in the suburbs after building two houses yeah, this is not our bag. Um and that and that's okay, but I think noemi's actually surprisingly a little more I would say a lot more ready to be like hey, like let's sell this shit, move to the city.

Speaker 1 3:56

Surprised about that because the city is not safe. Yeah, um, and you're big on safety I am.

Speaker 1 4:03

Uh, I think that we're both overlooking something here, and I think the thing that you might be overlooking is how small that space is going to be with too loud, rambunctious kids, and how often you're going to want to be out of the house, like I. Just I think, if we're all on top of each other, I think it's going to be bad, man, I think it's gonna be really bad after having like 5 000 square feet and then we get vacuumed into a thousand, and every time somebody farts you can hear it in the room. I think it's going to be a huge problem.

Speaker 2 4:30

I still disagree. But you know I also lived in constant things happening. You see how it is at my aunt's house.

Speaker 1 4:38

You see how it is in my mom's house and this feels so lonely. Yeah, I feel really lonely. You also haven't lived in your aunt's or your mom's house. Yeah, in 25 something years, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 4:50

But I've also always had roommates. You know what I mean. So it's just like I don't know. I think I just disagree because this is a part of our stories where we weren't around each other. You know what I mean. Like you've lived by yourself forever, I lived by myself for lived by myself for four months before I got pregnant.

Speaker 2 5:11

But I don't necessarily think I'm overlooking the space, but I think I'm overlooking the safety city now and being a lot more um aware of what's happening on the news, and you know what I mean. I think I think I am overlooking that. I think I think that's something that's going to be a shock. But I think living so far out, not being close enough to things like I do think I'm going to want to leave the house more often, but I think leaving the house isn't going to be as much of a hassle then if we move, if we were to move to the city as it is now, I feel like I'm stuck all the time yeah, I do too, and that's, and that's something I'm trying to make sure I'm not overlooking, because I know it's things that it's such a hard decision.

Speaker 1 5:53

But and that's that's what I'm saying the kids are going to get older. School choices are going to become more important. It's one thing to pick out a second grade. It's different picking out a high school, yeah, or middle school or middle school. And I just think we're going to be stronger in our opinions about what should happen and what's the next best step. I'm not worried about.

Speaker 1 6:10

It's not going to break us, you know, but I do think that these like pain points and these differences of opinion are going to start to become more present in our relationship, I think.

Speaker 2 6:19

I think I'm more worried about it than you more worried, worried about what?

Potential Future Conflicts in Parenting and Life Decisions

Speaker 2 6:22

Just what? I'm kind of looking at this hoping that we don't have any heated discussions, because that's just not. That's not my style, that's not something that I enjoy doing. You know what I mean. Like I would love for in a perfect world, we would just be able to have a sit down discussion about any conflict that we have, and I know that that's not necessarily the case. But I don't know what our heated discussions will look like this far into our marriage versus what they looked like in the beginning of our relationship.

Speaker 2 6:52

And that's my fear. My fear is that y'all, we we had a lot of heated discussions, like there's a reason why we're at the place that we are now, because it was so bad in the beginning, you know, and I think I have like a really deep fear of it going back to that and that's what makes me worried.

Speaker 1 7:10

I'm super confident we'll never go back to that really. I mean, I'm hopeful this, but this is my, this is how I see it. I think early in a relationship it's like the blips are more often and they're more exaggerated because you have more conflict because you don't know each other that well.

Speaker 1 7:25

You haven't had a lot of life together. You haven't had a lot of practice overcoming just different stresses in your relationship, because you got your individual stuff and you got your collective stuff. But as time goes on you might not have as many frequent or exaggerated blips, but when it does blip it's pretty substantial, you know, and that's because you all have been doing life together. You all do have the practice, and now this thing is exposing a weak point that you didn't see. But I'm not afraid of that and I don't think again. I don't think it's something that's going to break us.

Speaker 1 7:54

I just think it's something we need to be mindful of because I think it's inevitable. Yeah, but you also come from like divorced parents and I can't imagine how, how just the idea of conflict in a relationship makes you feel about the long term prospects of our relationship. It scares me, I'm sure I can't. I can't imagine what that's like.

Speaker 2 8:17

Every single day, to the point where I wouldn't say that I avoid arguments, but I do my best to avoid conflict and I think I'm hyper critical about what the conflict is and whether or not it's worth it to bring it up.

Speaker 2 8:33

And I worry that maybe there are things that are safe to bring up. But because of the trauma of having divorced parents, also being an only child when that happened, so I was in the middle of every argument, like if they were beefing. My mom would say something to me about my dad, my dad would say something to me about my mom, and I always felt like I had to choose whose side I wanted I needed to be on. And if I leaned a little bit more on one side, one of the parents might feel some type of way it might treat maybe not necessarily like treat me some type of way but I'll feel that shift in energy and it's like that's a lot of pressure and that's a lot of stuff for a little kid to hold. So I think like not only I don't want to hide you know conflict from our kids, but I also want them to see what healthy conflict looks like. So maybe I do kind of overanalyze, I'm overly critical about those things.

Speaker 1 9:21

And I see that I know when you're doing it. Sometimes I make overly critical about those things and I see that I know when you're doing it, and sometimes I make space for you know, or I didn't know.

Speaker 2 9:27

I mean, I knew you noticed it, but I guess we've never really had that conversation because it's not something that needs to be discussed all the time you know it exists and I see it and I understand it, but I make room for it.

Speaker 1 9:39

So if I see, like you, on the edge a little bit, I might explain myself a little bit more or I may say well, this is what I want to do and I might ask you like, how do you feel about that? What are some of the things you think we can add to make it more comfortable for?

Speaker 1 9:51

you right yeah, so I can see it coming, but you know, we're not your parents I know, and I know that I know, you know that, but it doesn't. It doesn't quell the feeling in the moment it doesn't satisfy anything when the emotions are bad, and I'm not saying that because I think that it's going to fix anything. I'm just saying that because it needs to be said. You know, no, I I can't imagine what that's like, just having that knocking at your back door, the back door of your mind, all the time it's.

Speaker 2 10:17

It's so interesting because I feel like I'm I'm at the extreme on both ends. On one side, I'm like I am very aware that we can love each other and we could have this amazing marriage and open communication and everything, and it can go to shit tomorrow. Like I am very much aware, hyper aware of that. But also, like the longer that we're married, you know, I mean I'm still falling in love with you. I mean, like the deeper that I'm in love with you and you know, the more memories and the more life that we build together, it makes it even harder to accept that that's a possibility. So it's literally like this. Like sometimes I completely am numb to certain things because I can't handle the thought of it not working out and me not being able to do anything about it.

Speaker 1 11:09

But at the same time it's just like well, you don't want to do too much, because who?

Speaker 2 11:11

knows what could happen and I feel like those are very difficult things. That's a very crazy balance to have to tell I'm constantly in my head about these things.

How Past Family Trauma Affects Conflict Avoidance

Speaker 1 11:15

I mean, I understand that. I understand that it's in my mind. It's very different actually. I feel kind of liberated by the idea that this can all go wrong at any moment. What's liberating about it the fact that I can do something about it before that comes Got you. I got that in mind. It's not going to blindside anybody, unless you pop up, you have a baby on your wife or something like that.

Speaker 2 11:38

I feel like it can, though I feel like, in the example of my parents, they felt blindsided by it. Not to put all the business out there, but like 9-11 was like a huge issue, the effects of, september 11th.

Speaker 2 11:51

Yes, yes um, that that changed everything. The economy crashing around that time changed everything. And I feel like both of my parents went into like how do we make sure we're okay? Mode and on one side one parent kind of focused on the family and another parent kind of focused on themselves. Like business wise, it can affect the family, I mean, hopefully for the positive, but it was a very one-sided kind of decision and like who can predict that? There were issues, of course, before that, but that was like the, the key issues like how do we handle things when our back is against the wall? Do you grab the kids first? Do you put on your life raft on first? And that was the fundamental disagreement and I don't think either person's philosophy on how to handle that was wrong.

Speaker 2 12:40

But it didn't play well it didn't play well together at all, and that, like the unknown, is what scares me. It's like we can communicate, we can do all of these things, but it it really comes down to fundamentally like, how do you handle things when your back is against the wall?

Speaker 1 12:56

and I don't know, because my back ain't against the wall I think that's where the liberation piece comes in for me, because I know that that can happen. So when I see evidence of how we could potentially get there, I'm not going to be blindsided by that, because I can see the little greens as they fall, before they, you know, accumulate into a pile you have the benefit of foresight here.

Speaker 2 13:15

Yeah, and I think for them, for the most part it's some stuff.

Speaker 1 13:18

Nothing is black and white, yeah, but we we say it all the time we don't know if we're going to be married in 15 years. We have no idea, that's not guaranteed to us. That's not promised to us, but we understand that we do everything we can to make sure that it does happen.

Speaker 2 13:33

Right, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Oh, I didn't think the conversation will go there, yeah.

Speaker 1 13:38

It's just with relationships. I see so many patterns. I understand why they don't work. I understand how people get tired of each other. I understand how people like just grow apart. I get it. It's not even malicious sometimes, it's just I'm a different person now. You're a different person now. You can't see me as I am. I can't see you as you are. I think we've reached the limit of what we can do together. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 14:09

No, that's real, like when we were talking about like small things accumulating and especially like with the whole moving thing. I think the reason why this is also such like a heavy conversation while I'm I'm kind of like ready to move out of here is because, like remember, when we were first moving, we didn't think about the schools, we didn't think about the school district. We kind of just like we just wanted to go to a place where we were close to the family. We can get some more land, like basically, more bang for your buck.

Speaker 1 14:27

Yeah, different priorities.

Speaker 2 14:28

Yeah, and I feel like back then sometimes why the moving conversation is really frustrating for me, because it wasn't my ideal situation was not to move where we moved. Not because there's anything particularly wrong about where we live, but the schools just weren't up to par. And I knew, like when we first moved to the suburbs, how old was Emery two, maybe was she even two yet no no, she was two when we got married oh, she was two, yeah she might have.

Speaker 1 14:57

I guess 2019 oh yeah, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 14:59

Yeah, she was two. And I remember thinking like, while I love the fact that we own a home and I love the fact that we have this, this land, and we built this home and everything, like I just knew that the school conversation would come up, I knew I didn't know that I would leave my job, I didn't know that we would be in this financial situation that we are now, thank God. But I just knew that this we didn't give enough thought to what life looks like past the first couple of years after we moved. And then, when we moved even further into the suburbs, I'm like, okay, well, are we committing to the school system, are we committing to this area? Because even then I'm not sure if that's the best decision. And now we are what, seven years later, five years later from when we first moved to the suburbs? And we're in the exact situation that I was afraid that we'd be in back then.

Speaker 2 15:47

And it's just like it makes me think, like, did we make good decisions? Did I speak up enough about like the issues that I had? And I know, looking back, I didn't, because I was afraid of conflict. You know what I mean. I was afraid of, because it already wasn't a conversation. That was on the table. The couple of times I did bring it up, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't enough for it to be a conversation. It's like I don't know where to put my feelings now, and I think that's why I'm just like, well, let's just get out of here so we can start over. But also, is that something? Is that a decision that we're making too fast? Are we being too hasty?

Speaker 1 16:18

and then perpetuate the whole cycle of making decisions and not having the long game in mind.

Speaker 2 16:24

Exactly, and I feel like this is a perfect example of when is the best time to have the conversation or to kind of sit on it and wait, you know, and we don't have as many arguments as we had in the beginning. But this is something. This is a conflict that I'm always afraid to bring to the surface, because I don't know what other emotions are going to come with that. So I'd rather just be like let's just get out of here. If it's not working, let's just let's just go. But I don't know if that's something that I should bring up. I don't know if that's something that's on the table for a conversation.

Speaker 1 16:57

I think it's absolutely on the table for a conversation. I don't see that as conflict to the same degree that you do. Don't see that as conflict to the same degree that you do. Really, no, not at all. And and I know that and I've always felt like you've held back or internalized a lot of your feelings toward us being here in this area and the reasons that we're here, and there's a lot of other reasons that we're not.

Speaker 1 17:17

Our old neighborhood was also we need to get. It was a trap house dog like the house was nice, but our uber driver got robbed at gunpoint the the day after we brought sydney home from the hospital dropped something. He was an uber carrier, dropped something off at our door and a young man ran up on him with the glocky, with a switch, and took his car and since then most multiple people have been shot shootouts.

Speaker 2 17:41

there's probably a bullet hole in our garage from the last shootout or a couple shootouts ago. It was just not Ridiculous.

Speaker 1 17:50

And it wasn't. We didn't live in a project, we paid like $400,000 for that townhouse.

Speaker 2 17:54

It was a nice townhouse. It's probably worth like 600 stacks. Right now I ain't paying 600 stacks to be shot up. That's crazy.

Speaker 1 18:07

While I'm chilling in the basement, pay 600 stacks to be shot up like crazy people walking their dogs, dogs pissing in your yard, all crazy.

Speaker 1 18:10

It was just everywhere it was. It was not, it was not it. There were a lot of reasons why we love, but I think that feeds back to the thing that I was talking about before, and it's when you're making these decisions, man, you don't know what's down the pike, you know you don't know all the other turns. You kind of make the decision that's best for you in the moment, but as you grow, you have different needs, you have different understandings from that situation, you grow a different philosophy and then you kind of become solidified in that and when two people bump heads on things that are kind of solidified in their minds, it just makes for more spirited argument almost every time minds.

Speaker 2 18:46

It just makes for a more spirited argument almost every time. So what are you just using that practical example or that practical situation as an example? What do you like? I feel like you're more aware. I didn't know. You were aware that I was holding back, like I really I had no idea that you were aware of that. What do you think I could have done to not avoid that conversation back then?

Speaker 1 19:06

I don't know, because I think I understand why you felt like that. Because where can the conversation go? Yeah, you know at some point it's going to be more. So vent and frustration, yeah, unless here's some actionable things that we can do. And one thing I know about you is venting frustration does not make you feel better. If there's no actionable steps toward change, you're not going to feel better after that. So I don't feel like it was just you holding on to stuff because you were so conflict avoidant.

Speaker 2 19:32

It's also because you probably didn't see a viable solution at the end of the conversation, and that was basically the question I was asking you, because at the time I didn't know how to bring that up without it sounding a certain way, without like there, there weren't any other options. Even when we got the house that we had now, we had a very short amount of time to make a decision very short, like like that, and even looking back, like I don't think that us getting this house was a regret.

Speaker 1 20:02

I don't think it was a bad decision. I don't think it was a bad because if we didn't get it, we'd be somewhere right now like man. Remember that house.

Speaker 2 20:07

We could, or we would have been stuck at the trap house. I know it's funny that we call it a trap house, but like if y'all knew, if y'all knew and y'all live in peasy county. You know what I'm talking about. Have a side conversation with me and I'm going to tell you. You're going to be like, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 20:28

You know what neighborhood it used to be.

Speaker 2 20:30

Yup, you probably asking us like why? And then you saw the inside of the house and be like, okay, I get it, I get it, I get it.

Speaker 1 20:37

It was a really nice townhouse.

When Conflict Feels Like an Attack

Speaker 2 20:44

we came from an apartment we none of us have ever owned a house before and we got there and it was. It was magical. We had no grass, we had to cut nothing. Now we got a whole ton of grass and our grass is dead like it's just take it.

Speaker 1 20:52

Take it away, guys. Just take it. Get out.

Speaker 2 20:54

Now we're on a complain train, let's bring it back so, going back to the whole purpose of this conversation, which is still relevant, but it's just like how do you you handle arguments? Is it best Like? What does avoiding arguments look like, and what things are worth bringing to the table and what things aren't, and how do you know when it comes to conflict?

Speaker 2 21:12

I think that there are a whole bunch of different ways that people handle it Some people avoid it, Some people welcomely I mean not welcome welcome it, and I think that would line under, like the, the confrontational kind of kind of aspect. So there's confrontational, there's conflict avoidant, what else is there?

Speaker 1 21:28

I mean I guess the healthy way. Yeah, I mean you could be. You can be confrontational, you could be conflict avoidant, you can also be indifferent. Yeah, some people don't care either way.

Speaker 2 21:37

People conflict. The word conflict with fighting you know what I mean or like being confrontational, or avoiding, or even being indifferent, but I feel like there's a way to handle conflict. That's none of those three things where it's just like you can look at something and you can say, okay, this is worth having, the this is important enough for us to have a conversation right now, or this is something that I'm feeling I need to sit on it a little bit, or this may be, in fact, a good time or a good issue to talk about, but right now isn't the best time.

Speaker 1 22:11

Yeah, I think you do that by being outcome focused.

Speaker 2 22:15

Oh, give me, give me more on that.

Speaker 1 22:16

So if your outcome focus, you can just set yourself up to have a more productive conversation. So if there's conflict in the relationship like people have different motivations on how to approach that conflict. Some people's motivation is I ain't gonna let nobody think I'm a punk. Some people's motivation is I'm not gonna let you control me. Some people's motivation is I want this thing to work, so I'm gonna go along to get along. By the way, that's not always a bad thing. Like in a marriage, you do a lot of going along to get along. It's to a point it becomes harmful.

Speaker 1 22:46

But for the most part it can't work if you don't do some of the go along to get along. So in some people's approaches I'm just going to get the things that I want. I know what's best for the family and everyone else is going to have to acquiesce. It's a million ways that you approach conflict, but I think billion ways that you approach conflict. But I think the healthiest way is to keep in mind what the what the best or most favorable outcome is for the collectives and that way you can separate yourself from the emotion of it a little bit.

Speaker 1 23:12

Keep them, you know. Carry the emotion with you. I feel deeply about this thing, but in my decision making I'm going to choose to look at my emotion as something that I feel and not a rule of law in this conversation or outcome focus. This is ultimately what I want. But I know, before I get what I want or before we negotiate what, what I want, I know I'm gonna have to get my feelings out because I got big emotions and they're gonna have to live somewhere besides just in my head. So it's being outcome focused setting yourself up to walk away from the conversation with more than just hurt feelings or more than just a very good venting session, because it's man conflict feels like an attack.

Speaker 2 23:49

Keep it above it feels like an attack, even though it's not always something that, like you, feel strongly about.

Speaker 1 23:54

Yeah and and it's hard to admit that. It's hard to admit that it feels like an attack, even though I kind of know it isn't. I can't move away from the fact that it feels that way. Instead of moving away from the fact that it feels that way, I'm a fan of embracing it. Best way to get through something is just drive straight through the joint straight line.

Speaker 2 24:12

I don't always do that, but I think you do a much better job at doing that than before. Let me just give you some context. Our arguments spiraled all the time we I think you call it dogpiling, and whenever we had some type of conflict usually me I saw it as opportunity to be like bet, there's an open door. Let me throw in everything that I'm feeling and I feel like I mean that's definitely not a healthy way to kind of handle it, especially with somebody like you. Like I just don't think that works for us. But I feel like you do a really really good job. That works for us, but I feel like you do a really really good job. It's like if you do hear something that stings a little bit, I forget what you said. You said it in one of our discussions a couple of years ago. Like I feel a little tender about that?

Speaker 1 24:54

What did you say? Do you remember? Yeah, that's a little tender.

Speaker 2 24:56

Yeah, that's a little. That's a tender topic.

Speaker 1 24:59

It makes me want to shoot back at you and hurt your feelings.

Speaker 2 25:01

But the fact that you say it and I acknowledge it, I'm like, okay, I know now not to be rah-rah about this particular subject and I need to kind of massage my way through and I feel like you weren't always like. I mean, you were not like that at the beginning of the relationship. I feel like a lot of our arguments just spiraled in the beginning, but I feel like that was something that you did that I'm still learning how to do, because I think I am I'm not conflict avoidant, but I am more avoidant than not about things that trigger me, that remind me of my parents divorce, like topics.

Speaker 1 25:35

You know what I mean like you, are not conflict avoidant but I have found people do, people think you are yeah I think it's your face.

Speaker 2 25:42

Let me just go into a rabbit hole, because this is something that I've been feeling I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna be long, but I need to get this shit off. I think most people who knew me before I moved to DC would say that I was confrontational and direct, and I think that is directly a response to having the kind of mother that I have, because you tend to kind of respond. Like the women in your life and the women in my life are very direct and confrontational, and even back then I was, I enjoyed being a little petty you know what I mean. Like I enjoy back in the day we used to call it like stunning people like I enjoy checking people and making sure people didn't play with me.

Speaker 2 26:16

And I feel like now I'm at a place where, like, being petty doesn't do anything for me anymore. Like I just feel like it's exhausting, like I don't care, like the worst thing that you can do is say that you don't care when you actually care deeply, like you are, you care a lot. I'm unbothered, you're very bothered, you're extremely bothered. And it just looks weird now because the words and the actions and the feelings are just not adding up. Before I cared to prove a point, I cared to stand 10 toes down on whatever it is that I was like feeling, thinking, wanting to do.

Speaker 2 26:46

I feel like now I'm kind of at a place where it's just like fine, like I don't care, like I'm 10 toes down about the things that I care about, the things that affect my family, the things that affect our business, like people that I care about. But if I don't think we're going to meet, like have some type of understanding, if this doesn't do anything for my life, like I I genuinely do not care. I have so many things happening. I'm not going to spend time and energy on something that doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 27:15

I'm sorry, call it, call it the from one extreme to another, I don't care, like I really don't care. So that's why I say I think in a lot of arguments I'm not necessarily conflict avoidant, but if it's not something like you said I know didn't say solution oriented what did you say? Outcome focus, outcome focus if it's not going to serve a specific purpose and if it can't get fixed in the immediate future, I just don't, I just don't see the purpose in spending a lot of energy on it one thing about family and this is no shade to you or anybody who's a member of a family but one element of family that I didn't see coming is forced interaction.

Speaker 1 27:52

You are forced to interact with people all the time, whether you want to or not. You wake up next to them. You deal with them the first thing in the morning. They're the last people you deal with at night. If you want a moment, they infiltrate your space with this stuff and that that's just not my family to me, that's also me to my family. No way me be watching netflix not coming. Hey, boo man, tell me why the? Oh, my bad. You. You watching the aegis elba movie, my bad but that doesn't bother me.

Speaker 1 28:19

I know it bothers me, though, but why? Because? Why are you talking to me like we talk all the time like why are you, why are? You talking to me? I feel like we have to get to the bottom of that oh, possibly, but like also you said it yourself, I lived alone for a very long time and now I have three very talkative women who fight for my attention every single day but you, we've been in this space together for seven years, right?

Speaker 1 28:52

when you run for seven years, you don't get more energized at year number seven gotcha you just get better at running gotcha.

Speaker 2 28:59

You're tired, you're just able to push through it a little bit, but you don't want to run.

Speaker 1 29:03

I don't want to run. I want to chill on the couch and not be talked to, but that doesn't make sense. I'm a member of a family of four so how do you find?

Speaker 2 29:13

oh man, we off the rails now, yeah no, because I feel like I'm asking the questions that people are thinking on my lips I feel, like, I feel like I'm asking the questions that the listener is gonna be like wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second they don't care, they do care, they do not care, they're gonna be like sir, but you went, a whole family and you about to be in a family until the day that you die yeah, you won't be complaining about this one thousand percent.

Speaker 1 29:37

There's a reason like older men be doing yard work and cooking out and working in the garage.

The Challenge of Balancing Individual and Shared Identity

Speaker 2 29:43

They want to get away from all the constant forced interaction yeah, I just you're not that person like also my dad wasn't my dad's a family man like my mom is more like you yeah, and my dad is just like family let's do everything as a family and my mom's like I'm out yeah, me and your mom are very similar. I always tell people I married a man that looked like my dad but had the personality of my mom maybe not the personality, but you are more like her.

Speaker 1 30:07

That's crazy. They look like my dad.

Speaker 2 30:09

Thing is always strange to me you're just tall and they're the same exact height. They're almost the same exact skin complexion and pretty much that's the build. My dad was my entire life, so I don't know so much that like I actually look like him, but it is kind of funny that y'all it's just such a strange thing to go.

Speaker 1 30:25

It's just weird. Weird to me, I don't know why. But yeah, I hear you, but I'm also like my man. I feel like we are. We are derailing a lot of this episode, but it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. I just had to say it out loud. But, like now, real talk, it's. I understand all of that. I really do, man. But fact of the matter is my brain has changed from what it was years ago. I work from home. Now I work by myself. We did covid when we were in the house with no interaction. I don't have the same tolerance for people in conversation that I used to have. I'm also almost 40. Yeah, and that man, there's something that happens to your brain where just that, like the closer you get to 40, the excess whatever's not necessary you just don't. You don't, you don't have the patience for anymore. I used to be able, like when I'm out in public someone say a joke that isn't funny. Like I'll like fake laugh. I don't fake laugh, no more.

Speaker 2 31:27

Like straight face that wasn't funny.

Speaker 1 31:29

Now, when people notice me from social media out on the street, it's I'm always gonna give you love. I'm almost always gonna give you a little bit of my time. I'm almost always gonna have an interaction. Yeah, that's fine. I'm built for this. It's cool. I love that. But if you just try to pull up on me and have a conversation about nothing or you just be yapping, I, I can't do it. I can't even watch youtube videos when people just be yapping like and and that's no shade like if you're brilliant at talking like, get your bag but I think more people can relate to you than can't like everybody's people, babe, people be trying to engage me in conversation all the time but I think it's also because of who you are.

Speaker 2 32:06

I don't know that people try to engage. Just regular people like people do that because you're online. They have. I think it's also hard for me to accept that part of it too that they're not normal thing because I just care, they see a normal dude living a normal life go to new york city.

Speaker 1 32:24

I'll be, I'll catch the subway. You want to train like? Yeah, you want to train like. Why can't I?

Speaker 2 32:28

catch the train because you're not a normal person. So a lot of people, you are a normal person I know what you're saying, it's just it's hard to, but I think that's what makes you a great like influencer, social media presence, celebrity, like whatever you want to call it. I think that's what makes you so relatable is the inability to understand that, like, you're here socially, like way up here, but the majority of people are like literally right here. I just reject it man, because okay I do.

Speaker 1 32:55

I reject it, and I feel like some people are too self-important, like, oh agree, I'm an influencer, now I'm better than you, how? No, you're not at all. We're going way off the rails. Let's bring this back to conflict for a second, and just if we establish that the conflict happens and we say what the conflict looked like, then I think the next step will be to establish maybe some ground rules for how healthy conflict would ideally look for folks look for folks.

Speaker 2 33:29

You know I'm saying. But before we kind of talk about ground rules I want to talk about just because we don't have arguments, that escalate doesn't mean a lot of people, don't?

Speaker 2 33:34

that's true and I really want to focus on like, before you can fight fair and like before you can even establish ground rules for fighting fair, you need to know, like, what you fighting about and why. You know what I mean. Like, why does this spiral? Because, like, ideally we want to be in situations where, like, we've already gotten to a place where we know how to communicate, we've already gotten to a place where we can effectively talk about things that bother us without you know being defensive or your partner being defensive. But we can't leave out the fact that, like you said before, that conflict makes you defensive. It feels like an attack. So, like, why does it feel like an attack?

Speaker 1 34:13

it's a disturbance of peace, harmony and what you view as a status quo, and any disturbance in the things that you find safety and reliability in are going to feel like a threat. I don't know how it cannot even like your brain. If there's something that disrupts your routine and your day. Sometimes you'll feel anxiety, and anxiety is a symptom of your brain perceiving the threat. So I think that's one piece of it, but also it's the way we associate conflict. Conflict growing up typically means that there's something, there's a negative consequence yeah somebody's wrong, and people do not like to be wrong.

Speaker 2 34:51

People do not like to be wrong I didn't like to be wrong in the beginning of our relationship.

Speaker 1 34:55

I hated that yeah, that shut me down. Yeah, I don't care about being wrong you're such a unicorn.

Speaker 2 35:01

I know we talked about it before, but I think you had like you learned so much from being wrong.

Speaker 1 35:06

When you're right all the time, that's like going to the doctor and you're sick and you just made something wrong with my body, and then you go in and they can't figure out anything. Some people like, yes, they couldn't find anything. I'm terrified because you couldn't find it. That doesn't mean that nothing exists. You know that.

Speaker 2 35:22

Those are two different things I think a lot of that has to do at least from what you've shared with me and like on the social media platforms and stuff about how like I feel like your mom and yours relationship was very like conversational, Like. For me it was very like things are your fault, Like if I got a B instead of an A, what didn't you do? Why didn't you get an A?

Speaker 1 35:45

Very deficit focused.

Speaker 2 35:46

You know, and I think that, like more often than not, maybe that's why a lot of people have that relationship with conflict, because it's like if there is a conflict, that means there's something that I'm doing or you're doing wrong as my partner and we need to get to the bottom of it. It's either your fault or it's my fault. And how do we get from the fault part? Because I know I felt like that and I'm actually asking myself that question, like how did I get to a place where it wasn't my fault anymore?

Speaker 2 36:16

Yeah, I think that in large part had to do with you and how you handled conflict, because anytime I would mention that something was your fault, even in an argument, you'd be like no, that's not my fault, that's just a consequence of the situation. And I think you did a really good job at like letting me understand that difference. But I don't know that everybody has that in a relationship. I guess what I'm afraid of is like getting back to the ground rules of how to fight fair, like you can fight fair all you want, but if your partner's not fighting fair with you, what's the?

Speaker 1 36:40

point.

Speaker 2 36:40

Oh, that's complicated, yeah I feel like that, you know, like. That's like one person going to therapy and using all of their therapeutic practices and tools and everything, and it's just like they're talking to a wall.

Speaker 1 36:51

Well, I think it's a number of things that make people do that. I think when people are afraid of losing something because conflict has, like I said, there's this, there's a price to be paid at the end of conflict, and it's usually you're going to lose something, you're going to be disconnected from something, or you're going to be restricted in some way, or even things that aren't that tangible. The air is going to be weird. Every time I tell a friend that what you're doing, I'm not a. I don't like it, I don't think it's good for you. Something doesn't feel right about this.

Speaker 2 37:19

Even if there's no conflict, there's weirdness after that, being okay with it being weird and I hate it being weird.

Speaker 1 37:26

I'd rather that's my avoidance thing. I'd rather avoid it than all us have to walk on elk sheds or we can't say that around care, you know he's gonna be. Nah see now. Now you're making it a thing that it doesn't have to be dog you know, and it's the weirdness is something you want to avoid, but there's a consequence to pay and I think in those moments you fight hard to stay away from whatever that consequence is.

Speaker 2 37:48

No, that is real. I feel like this is a personal therapy session.

Speaker 1 37:52

I don't therapize my wife.

Speaker 2 37:54

He really does. I can't.

Creating Healthy Resolution After Arguments

Speaker 1 37:55

I can't do it, man, cause I would hate to be married to somebody who pathologizes everything, even though, as a society, we pathologize everything You're better now than before. Yeah, you're better now. I feel like when you were in school, you would be bringing in these like textbook notes.

Speaker 2 38:15

Oh, they used to piss me off. Young therapists are like oh my god, he's so eager to tell me what it said in the dsm dm.

Speaker 1 38:19

What is it?

Speaker 2 38:19

dsm5 see, I'll be knowing. I'll be knowing what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 38:23

Nah, it's. You know, young therapists are like. I think it's an eastern diamondback rattlesnake or a cottonmouth where the babies.

Speaker 1 38:30

Yeah, the babies are more dangerous than the adults because the baby rattlesnakes don't know how much venom to inject, so they just give you all of it. But the older snakes like, yeah, he look about six, two, three hundred pounds. I give him about an ounce. Now the baby's like I can't tell, I'm gonna give you, you get everything and that's that's. That's what young therapists do a lot. But yeah, I don't, I don't like to do that. And my professor said most therapists are divorced in the first three, four years of their marriages.

Speaker 2 38:57

I could see. I could see that there was definitely a shift. I don't know. I just I'm Kira's biggest fan and I think he's just an outstanding therapist. I think that he's, you know, a great husband in the fact that, like we've kind of weathered the storms as we go and I don't feel like we've backtracked.

Speaker 1 39:14

So yeah, no, I don't. I don't feel that way either. I don't feel that way either. But you were talking about the way that you handle conflict in the beginning.

Speaker 2 39:23

Yeah, I was talking about um the way that I handle conflict and taking things personally and like knowing the weirdness.

Speaker 1 39:32

That was a big thing. Man, you are so much better at not personalizing and internalizing things. Can I say something about that?

Speaker 2 39:38

That is not by accident.

Speaker 1 39:40

I constantly You're very good at that and I'm so aware of it, and I think that's the key.

Speaker 2 39:46

I'm actually trying to give y'all like practical examples, because I feel like you can go online and be like how to not how to fight fair and how to you know and people and google or ai, you're gonna get them textbook answers.

Speaker 2 39:56

But I want to tell you, in real life it is very hard to not escalate, because anytime we have an argument, those thoughts do come through my mind, like, since we talked about moving a lot, it's like if we didn't, if we didn't have to move here, we wouldn't be in this issue. Of course, that goes through my mind, like you know, often, and it's not even just him, it was, it was just a lot of people telling me wrong stuff and I'm like, guys, I think I'm right, guys, I think I'm right, I was right the whole time.

Speaker 2 40:18

Like, of course, that goes through my head oh, you're also better than not saying I told you so oh, man, you used to be and I told you so, queen, and I'm still, and I told you so, queen, but that stays in my head, that doesn't have to go anywhere. You know what I mean and I want to encourage people who are probably coming from the more petty side in arguments to a more kind of neutral and understanding. Those feelings are not going to go away. You just need to differentiate, like, when it's okay to say those things and when it's not okay, and the tip is nine times out of ten it's not OK and the tip is nine times out of 10, it's not OK.

Speaker 1 40:53

Just gear towards like sitting in your feelings before you say them out loud. Yeah, and that's what helps Not sitting in your feelings doing or sitting in your feelings internalizing, but just gathering your own data so you can have a better understanding of the way that you feel and so that you can have a better approach. A better approach because it's one thing, the way you feel is one way, but how you communicate to a person is another. And how you communicate to the to a person for the sake of them understanding the way that you feel in a way that they can understand and not themselves internalize and turn it to a projectile. That's like the third level of the game you see the differentiation.

Speaker 2 41:23

sometimes you want to say shit to say shit and sometimes you need to say shit to get to another. Understand the distinction and the consequences of the words that come out of your mouth, but you know what, though?

Speaker 1 41:33

Like just bringing it back to me. One thing that I find with folks is that when they argue or when they're not necessarily fighting fair, like you'll notice when people argue, sometimes they'll say words like never and always, like exaggerated words, and one thing that we do is sometimes we exaggerate the point of things in order to make sure that we're being heard, and the the slippery slope to that is sometimes you can never feel like you're heard enough. You think you can like people like we live in a society when therapists was talking about that everybody wants to feel seen, heard, safe and validated. That's not the world we live in a society one therapist was talking about that Everybody wants to feel seen, heard, safe and validated. That's not the world we live in. I love her because I think therapeutic approaches is teaching people not to be resilient, Like that's not working. People need to toughen up 1000%, or not just toughen up, but learn how to be more resilient. Yes, that is happening, but also this is the thing that we need to do to be able to push through it in a healthy way. But also this is the thing that we need to do to be able to push through it in a healthy way.

Speaker 1 42:30

But either way, like I think, when people feel like they're not being heard enough, or they're not be, or they, the person, doesn't feel bad enough, we escalate, that's true. And we don't know, we don't have any confirmation that they, of how they feel on the inside. We can only see the manifestation of that and their behaviors or their responses. And some people don't do a good job at letting you know that they feel bad or they don't do a good job of letting you know that they're remorseful. So it becomes this thing where I have to press harder and say bigger words to make sure that my point is heard and you hear my point.

Speaker 1 43:01

You're just not responding in a way that makes me feel that way. So it just becomes a cycle of continual escalation, up and up and up, until somebody snaps and then something is said or done that takes a lot of work to repair, yeah, and when you repair the thing that was said or done, it ain't even about the situation that y'all were talking about in the first place. So now you got double work and that's just one situation and one part of your relationship pops up 30, 40 different ways in a long-term partnership. So it's just being mindful of how I feel, what I'm trying to convey what I think you feel. Trying to be mindful of all of those things while you're going through those emotions in real time.

Speaker 2 43:41

It's a lot to ask.

Speaker 1 43:42

It's not that people aren't very good at this because people are terrible or people are weak or people are fragile, it's because it's hard. We have this thing in our minds. Like relationships, love is not supposed to be that hard, says who who said bring them here and I will debate them on a public stage. That's bullshit. Love is absolutely supposed to be difficult. In a.

Speaker 1 44:03

In a partnership, y'all are two different people. I need her to be my peace just by virtue of y'all being two different people. I need her to be my peace just by virtue of y'all being two different people. Like two different people who are sharing space, who are sharing life, who are sharing goals, who still have to have their own individual identity. Then they have to have this collective identity that continues to grow and throw stuff in the way and god forbid, you got kids. Be your peace how? Only if I do not say anything, and that's not healthy. No one is going to be your peace and perpetuity. When it comes to partnership, there's going to be conflict, and the beauty of partnership is how you proceed through conflict in a healthy way, not just how little conflict you have so there's conflict.

Speaker 2 44:45

there is expressing your feelings, there is seeing how those feelings are responded to the other person.

Speaker 1 44:54

Then it's after you've expressed your feelings. Joking, joking kind of.

Speaker 2 44:59

And then the last part is after you've expressed your feelings, like now this person has to find a way to make you feel better, when you've probably made them feel better. Like it's just, there are layers.

Speaker 1 45:10

That's why.

Speaker 2 45:11

Let's actually talk about that. How do we handle stuff after the argument? Now all our feelings are out there. I feel better because I've expressed my feelings. Now you feel shitty because you feel bad because of what I said, and I'm still waiting on you to make me feel better because you hurt my feelings, which is why I brought it to you to make me feel better because you hurt my feelings, which is why I brought it to you and beginning our relationship.

Speaker 1 45:30

like noemi and I will have a heated argument and after she'll be upset with me because I didn't come back to make her feel better can I add some context to that?

Speaker 2 45:38

yeah it was also because back in that time we didn't really know how to come back together after an argument.

Speaker 1 45:46

Yeah, we would have an argument and be better and care needs three to five business days yeah, and it would just be like that's a lot to ask we're not gonna talk for the rest of this week because I brought this thing yeah, and then that, and what I learned is that makes you not bring things up that's exactly what happened, and then when you don't bring things up, they become a huge problem once they hit the breaking point and then now I'm dogpiling so.

Speaker 1 46:14

So I was like all right, I need to choose which struggle I want to have, whether I want to, just you know, have it up front or pay for it on the back end, and I I'm much rather my struggles up front. Tell me how much I owe you up front because on the back end it's gonna be interest and all type of stuff and service fees and what they charge in miami for no reason, resort fees oh yeah, don't resort how you charge a resort fee on south beach you don't even got nothing.

Speaker 1 46:40

It ain't nothing resortful about south I, I digress I digress some.

Speaker 2 46:45

Some hotels are worth it.

Speaker 1 46:46

The one miami is worth it.

Speaker 2 46:50

That's about it, yeah, or maybe like the four seasons. Well, yeah, nah, let me not say that there are wonderful hotels on south, but the ones that we were staying at in college was not, oh man, that one if they got a free happy hour in the lobby we got a free happy hour in the lobby.

Speaker 1 47:07

Don't do it, boss. If you young, go to Miami, get the cheapest room you can find, have a ball.

Speaker 2 47:12

The young kids not going to Miami. No more they going on international trips. I'm going to.

Speaker 1 47:15

Puerto Vallarta. I'm like where's that?

Speaker 2 47:20

That's in Australia. I never heard of it you wouldn't have man, maybe these kids. Be everybody. What y'all scamming? Y'all got passport money.

Speaker 1 47:31

I barely had five guys money.

Speaker 2 47:33

People just remember.

Speaker 1 47:34

Poor ain't the same poor it was when we were in our 20s.

Speaker 2 47:37

Well, let me just say, our nanny's like in her 20s and I remember she was just like I would tell her to get her passport she's like no, that's like $500. I'm like it's never been $500. Nah, she, like me, I used to think five hundred dollars.

Relationship Advice in Modern Society

Speaker 1 47:52

I think people thought it was expensive because they never actually looked, they just assumed that it was. It looks so fancy with the, with the fancy blue cover and all the stamps, and you see all the instagrammers with all the stamps in their passport. And then you start traveling and realize see, that's diversity in the black experience.

Speaker 2 48:03

I'm a black immigrant, the child of black immigrants, and the only way I was going back to Haiti was with my passport. So, like to me, having a passport wasn't a sign of like luxury, because it's not like I was going back to Haiti getting wined and dined and being at the equivalent of a Four Seasons. That never happened.

Speaker 1 48:20

Everybody I grew up with either has, to this date, never been on a plane, or got on a plane in their mid-late 20s, so it is a luxury to be able to hop on the airline get it off topic again.

Speaker 2 48:32

Okay, let's go back, let's go back, let's go back we gotta land this plane, so so I want to land this plane talking about, like, practical ways on repairing, uh, the relationship after having an argument and then just kind of like giving us like a wrap-up of what we talked about that was actually important to you, aside from our various random stories shout out to the listenership man because y'all we be driving on the road, go off the side and then we get back on the road.

Speaker 2 48:56

I feel like y'all like our tangents. I feel like that's how people talk, like we were talking, okay, step one.

Speaker 1 49:01

Let us know in the comments if you like our tangents. I got one podcast I listen to. I hate their tangents. I'm like bro get to the stuff. Y'all just be riffing for 20 minutes.

Speaker 2 49:11

I don't care, let us know not saying we'll change anything, but we'll keep that in mind as we move forward okay, so let's talk about some practical ways we have repaired our arguments, especially in the beginning. I can start with one okay, that. I know really helped you. I mean, I feel like it helped the both of us. But it's just like apologizing the right way, not like I'm sorry that you don't understand where I'm coming from.

Speaker 1 49:42

That is not an apology. That is such a trigger for me. When people can't apologize, I know, oh my God, that was okay. This is not a tangent, this is practical. This was an issue for us that's such a trigger for me, because we also have different care, needs to hear, I need I need to hear that you're sorry.

Speaker 1 49:58

It don't even have to be a lot, but like hey, my bad, I'm sorry. Don't try to separate yourself from accountability or sidestep it. Just say yo, I'm, I'm so sorry, I yo. Thank you for the apology, it's all good and we can move on, I promise you.

Speaker 2 50:12

Well, let me tell you the other side of things. It's not that I had a problem apologizing. I don't like to apologize if I don't mean it. And not like I don't mean that I'm sorry is that I don't have a full understanding of how you feel. So it's very hard for me to apologize for doing something when I don't know what I did or I don't know how what I said made you feel and I think that was also just, and I'm sure there are people out there that can respond. I mean, that can relate to that.

Speaker 2 50:37

So it's not like I'm not going to say sorry because I'm not sorry, but it's like I'm the type of person that needs a little bit more time to understand anything, like I'm the book smart girl, like I need to read the things, I need to see how it applies and I need to see examples of it. And then I'm like, oh, okay, but in that moment it is very difficult for me to put myself in my partner's shoes and be like, okay, I can see where this is, and I just think like that was a disconnect for you, because I think you get things pretty quickly and I feel like you wouldn't be in this field and be the person that you are. If you didn't, you can hear somebody's story and know where to go. I need some time to sit on that, but I think an apology that could work is what I'm hearing is blah, blah, blah, and I'm sorry that what I said made you feel that way. That's not what I mean.

Speaker 2 51:23

Sorry that what I said made you feel that way. That's not what I mean. I think there's a way to apologize and acknowledge how the person feels without fully understanding. Like I don't think you need to fully understand it, but you need to at least acknowledge it. So, with my apologies, I make sure to acknowledge how he feels and because I mean, we've been together for 10 years now, he knows I need some time. He knows I'm going to come back and be like, oh, remember what you said, x, y, z, like I get it now. You know, and I think there's the trust factor that needs to grow there if you're not already there. But, starting with the acknowledgement and your apology, I think it's always a good move what you think.

Speaker 1 52:00

I think that's a good move. I like that. I think one thing that's a really good practice is to own your humanity. Don't be infallible in conflict where, just because you feel strongly about your side, you don't feel like there's a point where you can be wrong. I feel like getting ahead of the things that you could possibly be wrong about.

Speaker 1 52:21

Like, hey, remember when we had a conversation about this, I've been thinking about it and perhaps I didn't see this all the way. Yeah, like it's, I think there's so much strength and showing the chinks in your armor, like showing vulnerability post argument and doing the repair part. It's like, yeah, I thought about it some more and I think I wish I would have handled that a different way. Or, uh, you know what, even validate some of the things they thought. I thought about it and I don't fully see it the way you see it, but I understand how you got there.

Speaker 1 52:50

You know, or say you know what, and at the time, I think I was really angry and maybe my words didn't come out the way that I wanted them to Do you.

Speaker 1 52:59

You got space right now, cause I want to share the way that I feel, but in a just a better way you know, coming back and you can't redo what you said, you can't undo what you've done, but you can explain further and you can explain deeper and you can give more of a meaningful rundown of the things that are on your mind and heart. But you have to. You have to show your humanity. You can't keep the part of you that may be wrong safeguarded, because then the other person is going to return in kind when it feels like an attack defense has come up. So if I put my defense down and I don't attack and I, you know I hit myself on the chin a couple of times I give myself a few love taps. It just I think it just sets a different tone in your conversation and it puts it on a path that's just much more. It has a higher likelihood to be more fruitful, doesn't mean that you want to do this and it's going to work.

Speaker 1 53:50

It just gives you a better likelihood of it working in your favor.

Speaker 2 53:53

That's all I think the only thing I want to add to that is like, if you are in a partnership, time is on your side, like you don't have to get everything right on the first conversation. You know what I mean. Some they've been times where Kier and I will have a conversation and I realized midway through me, like you know what, maybe this isn't the best time to talk about this Cause I feel like this is turning into something deeper. Can we talk about it later, once you know the kids go to bed, or can we talk about it tomorrow? Because sometimes, like I might bring something to him and through our conversation I realize it's something deeper.

Speaker 2 54:25

Or I realize that he actually has feelings about the same situation that I didn't anticipate and I don't necessarily have the responses for that, or I don't have the emotional capacity to deal with that at that moment and I think like it's okay to be like you know what, let's touch base a little bit later, or let's talk about this with a little bit more context and, like that follow through part, lets it be like an ongoing thing versus like a fight or argument that we have to attack right now. And I think like that's really helpful for us, because I feel like our arguments aren't like one and done or disagreements, rather, aren't just like this happened and now we're over and we're moving on. We're never going to come back to it. I think it's always going to be an ongoing conversation and being okay with partnership being an ongoing conversation about various things that y'all have to deal with together. You disagree a little bit.

Speaker 1 55:14

I think it depends on what kind of partner you have. I think that's ideal when you have a partner that has a certain level of emotional maturity well, let's use that as an example.

Speaker 2 55:24

Let's say you bring in something to your partner and they on some rah-rah stuff. That was not the time, yeah, you know. Let's say you have a partner who's?

Speaker 1 55:33

who's not aware that their response is rah-rah, because they feel threatened and now they're beginning to become defensive, but they're in a defensive attack mode so how, how, how should people handle that?

Speaker 1 55:46

because I feel like that happens more often than not I think that if that's your partner's default mode, there has to be a conversation about what you all see during conflict. There has to be a conversation around the way that you process conflict before you can process conflict. If you can't push through somebody's wall like that, it's not going to happen. It has to be like babe, I noticed that when I bring something up and it's always good you could bring up your own weakness first, like, oh, your own shortcomings first. I notice when I bring these things to you, it makes you upset. And the way that it shows you upset to me is you lash out. I feel like you lash out at me and that's not an I statement, you know that's. That's definitely a you statement. So there there might be some defensiveness there, and I think there's a good argument that you can't push through somebody's defensiveness by making them defensive. But someone who's chronically defensive, you're not going to be able to push through anyway but, they have to know what you see.

Speaker 1 56:40

First. They have to, second, recognize it in themselves. And third, there has to be some type of conduit to change. I think a mature conduit to change is time and perspective. Not everyone has that kind of leeway in their relationship, but I think another conduit to change, I think an immature conduit to change, is if you don't do this, I'm leaving yeah, agreed like threats and ultimatums.

Speaker 1 57:03

They are crazy effective, like they work a threat or ultimate and you don't do this, I'm leaving. Yeah, agreed, like threats and ultimatums, they are crazy effective, like they work a threat or ultimate and you don't do this shit, I'm out. It may work like they're very effective. Short term, yeah. Long term they're destructive and when you don't leave, when you promise now that threat doesn't hold any weight, and then when you do leave, you're leaving, kind of like the bone doesn't break evenly. So even if you all reconcile, it's a nasty healing process um, and it violates a lot of trust.

Speaker 1 57:31

It's complicated. I don't know if it's just a straight out thing where you do this, your partner does this. No, societally we lack a ton of emotional maturity and we are very and I hate to use this word uh, but we have a very uh narcissistic collective mindset we're very, we're very, not not narcissistic, I know not, not narcissistic personality disorder.

Speaker 1 57:53

There's a difference between a disorder and the term narcissism, the idea of it. But we're very self-absorbed. All of our messages are about self-improvement, of self going for the things you want, your goals. You're, we're very selfcentered and I just don't know if that's conducive for long-term partnership. Might just be a time in our society where it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 58:11

But, bringing it back to the individual, you just got to be careful and know who you with so, going back to my question, when I was saying how to acknowledge those things in the conversation, I felt like you were talking about when you already know that that person doesn't handle conflict. Well, I'm talking about coming into the conversation, I'm realizing that you're being defensive. How do I handle that in the moment? And I don't know that that is the point to be like.

Speaker 1 58:32

Well, I've noticed that you're being defensive, so that's.

Speaker 2 58:35

That's what I was saying, like when I was saying, knowing when to be like, you know what now is not the time for that is recognizing that, like, clearly, the conversation that you're having is not the same conversation that the person is having with you. Based on that situation and I and that's when I feel like you need to maybe not announce that you're not no longer having this conversation, but something I feel like it's important to recognize when the plan has deviated from your intentions- and be okay with stopping being okay with stopping and being like you know what.

Final Thoughts on Conflict and Communication

Speaker 2 59:04

I know that I didn't expect for my partner to get defensive about this. Maybe this is something that I wasn't aware that they're sensitive about, or it is bringing up some traumatic experiences about something else. But being okay with recognizing you know what. I thought I was gonna have this conversation, and maybe I shouldn't right now, because I feel like those are the practical things that have worked for us and I think like we have the benefit of have done the work on knowing when we're defensive and knowing how to address that defensiveness in a way that's tender enough for the person to not feel attacked. But I just don't know that that's the case with everybody and I don't know. People know things until you in that experience.

Speaker 1 59:45

I mean, I think it is a good idea to to pause the conversation for a second.

Speaker 2 59:51

But how do you pause without it being more of an issue?

Speaker 1 59:54

I think you know it depends on who you with, but I think you said it perfectly right now Doesn't look like the best time to have this conversation. It just doesn't look like the best time to have this conversation. We do time to have this conversation.

Speaker 2 1:00:04

It just doesn't look like the best time to have this convo.

Speaker 1 1:00:05

We do that now. Sometimes I'll say something, you'll give me a response.

Speaker 1 1:00:07

I'm like you know what, not right now maybe this ain't the best time to have a conversation, and it irritates me and I do want to push through but, again, I'm focused, focused on the outcome, and the outcome is something that feels mutually like, positively impactful, not just something that's gonna make me feel the warm and fuzzies because I got what I wanted, gotcha. Yeah, I really hope that y'all out there partner with people who, even in their most defensive moments, are able to breathe, take a step back and realize that their approach may not be the most helpful, and that's something that takes time it depends on the kind of person you're with.

Speaker 1 1:00:41

it depends on the kind of person you're with. It depends on the kind of person you are, but I hope that we're all moving toward that type of thinking in our relationships.

Speaker 2 1:00:49

Would you say that you think that just in dealing with people and practicing and having those conversations, do you feel like we're closer there than we were before?

Speaker 1 1:01:01

Me and you or society.

Speaker 2 1:01:02

Society? No, no. So the whole purpose of this conversation went to?

Speaker 1 1:01:08

no, I don't think so because I also think go on the internet and I want you to just look for relationship advice, look for partnership and marriage advice. It's very, very low level. It's very simple. It's very divisive. It's very divisive. It's very black and white. It's very dichotomous. It's either or it usually placates one side or another. Women do this or men do that. It's the purpose of this. All this information isn't to inform you, it's to entertain you. You know, when people get paid for clicks, the motivation behind the clicks change. I don't think that we're in a space where we have great relationship advice of clicks change. Yeah, I don't think that we're in a space where we have great relationship advice. I think we have sound bites and clips and very engaging words, words that make you want to respond, but uh, I don't think the advice is sound. I don't think the conversations are deep and nuanced. I don't think we can get away from this collective self-centeredness that we have. It's that's not the time that's so valid look like I hate.

Speaker 1 1:02:03

I hate talking about politics. But just look at the way america is right now, in our current state. Why are we like this? What? What did the people who voted in the person who leads the country say? We need to be america first and self-centered. It speaks to where we are. In western culture right now, people are very much so about self. That's not to say it's right. That's not to say it's wrong. It's to say that it's here and we need to talk about what's here, not what not always, not politically. I'm talking about just in general, not just what we wish was here. We got to talk about the thing that's in front of us really we're not there yet it's cool.

Speaker 2 1:02:35

I don't think we'll ever get there, but here, here's the hoping you see and I'm clearly idealistic like we're gonna get there one day, one step at a time we're helping society we cook.

Speaker 1 1:02:46

We cook as a society, but individuals will still prosper individual, and that's all I was about to say.

Speaker 2 1:02:51

Individual like this is more of a you thing. Take what what works, throw away what doesn't, and you know it kind of is what it is right because that wasn't encouraging.

Speaker 1 1:03:03

You talk politics on the podcast.

Speaker 2 1:03:05

It gets weird, I mean like honestly it is, it is what it is, it is what it is, and I I think that I think you're right.

Speaker 2 1:03:14

I think that sometimes, especially like people like me, we want to look at what we're doing and the messaging that's being put across, and we look at it from an idealistic point of view, whereas, like, it doesn't always hit home at home with you and your partner. You know what I mean. It doesn't, because a lot of these podcasts and these things that are being said, I'll be sending them to you. I'm like yo, I can't relate, like I can't. That's not what's going on in my household. I can't relate to that.

Speaker 1 1:03:41

So but you know what we talk about conflict between two people. I think we have a bad collective relationship with conflict. You can have a bad relationship with the conflict in your partnership, but you can also have a bad relationship with the conflict that exists in your life or the conflict that exists in your heart or the conflict that exists in your mind, and I think that's a lot of us. That's something we got to kind of navigate very, very slowly and intentionally.

Speaker 2 1:04:13

So hopefully, this conversation helps you navigate that a little bit, or at least like put you in a mind frame where you are open to seeing those things about yourself, about your relationship. I mean, we've been shooting for an hour and 16 minutes, okay.

Speaker 1 1:04:23

So I feel like once you kind of cut things down our podcast episodes I didn't mean to derail you, it's all good jerry's final thought our podcast episodes are typically around an hour anyway, so I really hope this was helpful.

Speaker 2 1:04:31

This was helpful for me because I feel like we haven't had this personal of a conversation in a while. A lot of these episodes tend to be like responses to things or ideas that we've had, and I feel like we're kind of going back to being a little bit more personal, which I really enjoy because I feel like it's a conversation with you, not just a conversation at you know people or online. So hopefully this was fun. It's a little bit different than what we've been doing in these past couple of episodes. But, yeah, let us know what you think in the comments. This was fun, but this was long and I can't breathe, so I got to go All right, that's going to be it for us today.

Speaker 1 1:05:05

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Speaker 2 1:05:19

Make sure that you leave a comment or rate us wherever you stream your podcast and if you are listening to the podcast, we have a new text us feature where, if you have any questions, you have any comments, you want us to just kind of like get to your information quickly. I want to say it's at the top somewhere. I'm going to find it. I'm sure you'll see it, but if you want to try it out, feel free.

Speaker 2 1:05:36

Please use the tech, yeah, and we'll, we'll shout you guys out a little bit in the next episode.

Speaker 1 1:05:41

Listen, don't talk to me.

Speaker 2 1:05:43

Applies to my kids, not my listeners, y'all come back to talk to me.

Speaker 1 1:05:47

Until next time. I hope that you're being safe, I hope that you're being smart and I hope that you are doing the right things by yourself and by your partner. Until next time y'all be good Peace.